13 Clint Burns, Phil Claycomb, & John Honold | ThinkNEXT Session 7

Andrew Estes (00:14)

Welcome back to the Nexus Church Planting Podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Estes.

Twice a year, we gather leaders from across our network for an event we call ThinkNEXT It's a time to step back from the pace of ministry, connect with like-minded leaders, and refocus on the mission of making disciples who make

This episode comes from our most recent ThinkNEXT gathering. Our theme was From Maintenance to Multiplication, Reframing Your Mindset to Allow the Gospel to Replicate. Together, we explored how the gospel spreads not through complexity or control, but through simple reproducible practices that ordinary believers can pass on from day one. We hope this session encourages you and challenges you to help you lead your church toward multiplication.

Let's jump in to today's session.

Nexus: Church Planting & Leader Care (01:05)

Welcome to Thursday. Guys, I'm full, man. Had a big breakfast. But also,

I've been spending the last couple days ⁓ with you ⁓ soaking it in. And I love Think Next for so many reasons. For those that don't know me, I feel like I've met everybody or everybody has a prior history with me. My name is Clint Burns. I'm the director of coaching here at Nexus. so I get to coach some of you. And those of you that I don't coach, I get to talk with your coaches.

about you behind your back and pray for you behind your back. But I'll pray for you to your face too. Like I'm not one of those guys. And so I love being here with you because I'm looking around and I know stories, man. I know roads that you're walking. I know battles that you're fighting. I know things that you've done that are inspiring and uplifting. And I know tears you've cried, blood that you've shed.

and it's real. And I like Think Next because we get to spend some time together. Nobody gets it the way church planners get it, right? Nobody knows the battle the way other people that have the scars and the shrapnel wounds, right, that have been in there in the foxhole and the mud and the blood.

and we've spent all this time studying and thinking and praying and we've read books and we've had conversations and I love it and everything we've done, everything we've done the last two days means

Absolutely nothing until today when we do the most important thing that we're going to do this week, which is we're going to go home. We're going to leave.

and we're gonna go back to people and faces and stories and families and the bullets are gonna fly and the weeds are gonna rustle and the lion's gonna be around there. And we gotta go back and pick up the spear and get ready to go back into the fight.

Sometimes I don't wanna do that, I wanna stay here. This is nice, I've got drinks and pie and I to hang out with my friends, I gotta go back. So I'm wearing my hoodie today. Go Bearcats, Brooklyn, Arkansas, little bitty town in Northeast Arkansas, about 3,000 people. That's where God's called me to go. So that's what I'm going home to.

It's two places I want us to go for our devotional thought today. The first one is because I'm a man, we're going to judges. We're not doing this Psalm stuff.

Judges chapter six. Where there's blood and swords and foreskins and it's awesome, all right?

That's, where can it start? The other place is gonna be Matthew chapter nine, and we'll get to that. But Judges six, and it's weird to me, I don't know, I think about myself a lot, because I'm a narcissist, but when I think about my story, of like what my church planning and what my ministry journey has been like, ⁓ the guy from scripture that I resonate the most with, like by far, is Gideon.

Gideon like in Judges 6 and if you read the first part of that it describes how bad things have gotten in Israel how Israel's done evil in the sight of the Lord the Lord gave gave them over to Midian and Midian is there and they're oppressive and there's a lot of them and they've made life hard so hard that like the Israelites have to hide in caves and they can't like go out to the gas station to get a coke or go they can't go to work or go to a ball game because everywhere they go

They live in fear. And so as a result, they're kind of like, they hide from what's going on and things are so bad. And so we run into Gideon, we meet Gideon for the first time where he's thrashing wheat. He's doing work for his job, for his family, for his job, but he's thrashing wheat in a wine press, in a little pit, in a hole in the ground so people won't be able to see him. Verse two, Midianites were so cruel, Israelites made hiding places for themselves in mountains, caves, and strongholds.

They planted crops, the Marauders from Midian and the Amalek and the people of the East, they would attack them. They camped in the land, destroyed crops. They left the Israelites with nothing to eat, taking all the sheep, goats, cattle, stonkeys, enemy hordes, coming with their livestock in tents as thick as locusts. They arrived on droves of camels, too numerous to count, and they stayed there. The land was stripped bare, and Israel was reduced to starvation because of the Midianites. Verse 11.

and even there, but by the way, we can all relate to that in some way. You look at the way the world is going. You look at the way our country exists right now. Under attack, under oppression, I don't know about the ministry context that you guys from, but we're gonna get into this here in a minute. I got a lot of people in my flock that are oppressed by sadness and despair, by mental illness, by greed, by lust, by.

Being told they're worthless. I have a guy I was on the phone with for two hours last night who was convinced, this dude is convinced that God hates him. That God's turned his back on him. last two nights he told me that he's had a gun and he sits on his bed and decides it's not gonna be the night. Because I'm not good enough, direct quote, I'm not good enough for Jesus. This is he is oppressed and he's hiding.

In verse 11, the angel of the Lord came and sat beneath the great tree at Ofra, which belonged to Joash and the clan of Abazer. Gideon was there and he's threshing wheat at the bottom of a winepress to hide from the Midianites. And that's where I feel like some of us may be. That's where I, I'll speak for myself. That's kind of where I go. The world kicks in, Satan, the butthole is there and he's doing his stuff and I'll hide.

⁓ Sharon Hargrave would say what we withdraw to punish or we withdraw to escape, right? That's kind of one of our moves. And so maybe you're hesitant to go back. I know some of you are sort of church planning. like, I've been raising funds and I've been making phone calls. I've sent a thousand emails and calls and texts and I had these people on my list that I was sure they love me and they're rich. They're gonna contribute to my church, right? They ghosted me.

They didn't take my call. They haven't responded to my email. I had a goal of this much money. I'm not even like halfway there. What am I supposed to do? I need a facility. I need somebody, please just somebody show up that actually believes in the Lord to help me with what's going on. Like you just, you feel like you're at the end of your rope and so you end up hiding in a winepress, kind of withdrawing and it's there that God shows up. And this is what God says to Gideon.

us as he's hiding his wine press he says, mighty hero, the Lord is with you. He calls him out by name.

Sir, getting replies, if Yahweh is with us, why is all this happening? Where are the miracles our ancestors told us about? Didn't they say Yahweh brought you us up out of Egypt, but now he has abandoned us and headed us over to the Midianites? Again, I can relate to that. Scripture's full of stories like this. Things don't go as planned. What happened to the God that promised us that this was gonna be our land forever, that he was gonna be our God forever? It doesn't look like.

It doesn't feel like, it doesn't seem like things are going that way. And then here's the great commission in the Old Testament from Judges chapter six. Yahweh turns to him and says, go with the strength you have, rescue Israel from Midian. I am sending you.

I can resonate with that too. In the midst of the battle and the darkness, I wanna hide, I wanna run away, and Satan, we all know who he is, keeps us in there and wants us to stay there, God is right there with us, and he speaks to us, and he calls us and reminds us, and some of us need to hear that today. Mighty hero, you said, yes, I will, and you went.

And the thing about faith, the thing about that's ironic that we all seem to kind of forget is the story of Israel, right? They're called out of Egypt, walking through the desert, and they have to depend on God for everything they need from water to protection to food to even like direction about where to go. And yet along the way, all they ever long for, all they ever want is we want to be able to rely on ourselves, on our own armies, on our own institutions, on our own.

our own sense of self, but God tries to remind them. He says, don't forget, don't forget, I'm all that you need. Trust me, follow me, allow me, right, to set the tone here. And that's he says to Gideon. Here's who you are, in case you forgot, you are a mighty hero. And the job that I have called you to, I've given you everything that you need. Go with the strength that you have. You've got everything that you need. If you know the story of Gideon, it's again,

He gets this army together and God says, nope, you got too many guys. Sorry, army's too big. Now what church planner cannot relate to that, right? Too many guys, you need less people. You need less people than you wanna have.

The next place I want you to go is I want you to go to Matthew, Matthew chapter nine. It's a verse we've heard before.

One of Nexus's. ⁓

Core versus Luke 10.2.

You've heard it, we've got it on, things written down and things, but with all due respect, I like the Matthew 9 version better, and I'm gonna tell you why here in just a second.

I want you to think in your mind about who you're going home to. John chapter one says, the beginning was the Word, right? And the Word was with God and the Word was God. Everything that was created, right, was created through him. That's what these last two days have been, the Word. Word means it's abstract, it's the fullness, it's the idea, it's the wisdom, it's the things that exist out here that like, it's real and it's true with a capital T.

but it has no form, it has no substance. You can't touch it or smell it or taste it, right? You can think about it, you can read about it, but you can't put a face to it or a name to it. You can't hear its voice, you can't touch it. But the word became flesh, right? And dwelt among us. That's how John describes incarnation. What we're doing today is incarnational.

It's we've been spending the last two days, we've been thinking and dreaming and praying and talking. We're about to go put flesh on. I want you to think about the people that you're going back to. I want you to think of faces.

And I want you to think of names. And I want you to think of stories.

That's my man, Jake. Jake's married to Amber. Jake is our worship pastor. Jake first met he who came to our living room because we were having tacos. Again, he didn't really believe in God, but Amber drug him along. We baptized Amber. Jake had never played an instrument, had never sung in a microphone, but thought it could be cool, so.

We made him our worship pastor, which is usually the way things go. Well, look, I'm a Church of Christ guy from Texas. I didn't know anyone that could play instruments. He was willing to learn, so he taught himself. And you'll see that here in a minute. But that's Jake talking to one of our friends in the nursing home. He's a good, anyway, Jake's one of my reasons why I'll tell you more about that in a second. They go to the last slide, or the next slide here.

Is this Gap?

Gavin is Jake's son.

known Gavin since he was six years old.

We baptized Gavin this last December.

was a big deal ⁓ for us. Gavin has a friend.

Zeke is 17. Zeke took his own life on Monday.

Gavin's hurting.

This is the video that Jake posted a couple days ago. Go ahead and play that video. If the highest place I reach is at your feet, then I've done it all. If the best thing that I've seen is your glory, then I've seen it all. Your love

I'll change my life forever satisfied God, you are my everything If one word is the only thing you speak Then I've heard it all If I feel your heart and never see your hand I still have it all No treasure of this life could

satisfied God you are my everything ⁓ God you are my everything

What a God, what a God.

⁓ What a God, what a God.

What I got, what I got

⁓ god, my god

is a message that Jake wrote to me yesterday. At the end of the song, I got to the what a God line. I couldn't get the words out. I keep seeing that kid sitting in the field by himself with a gun. Every time I tried to say what a God, I would think, how could I praise God knowing that kid just died alone? You can see in the video when I started fighting the tears while saying the words what a God and still barely getting them out.

After I that last line, I sat in silence about 10 minutes. I was crying, hurt so bad in that moment to say what a God we had when I couldn't stop seeing him sitting there. Was he waiting on someone to save him? Waiting on God to intervene, to send a sign? I know there's nothing anyone could have done. Maybe it's because Gavin's around his age. I don't know why it's affecting me so much. I've known my depression my entire life. I know many of us have thought the world would be better off without us. It just breaks my heart that a child would feel such a way to end their life.

I know God loves him, I know he loves us. I'm sitting at my desk tearing up at work, I'm so used to not feeling anything, I have to believe God's letting me feel this for a reason. I know we have to praise him in loads as much as highs. Something good will come out of this, I know it. So as I'm going home tonight, those are the minds, those are the faces and the stories and the.

things that are on my heart, in my mind. And I know that you guys have some too. Matthew chapter nine.

Jesus is out among the crowds. It says he's healing the sick. He's performing miracles. He's doing every kind of thing. He's doing ministry, which is what we do. And then Matthew 9, and this is why I like it better than the Luke passage, is because in Matthew 9, it says that Jesus turns and he sees the crowds. And in my mind, the way I picture it, I see Jesus and I see him looking.

the faces of the people that we've just been talking about, the faces of the people in your heart. He sees them. And he sees Jake and he sees Gavin and he sees Amber and he sees Brittany. And I mean, in your mind, I want you to name the people, name them in your mind. He sees those people and he sees the crowds. And it says he has compassion because they're lost and confused, harassed like sheep without a shepherd.

which is where we are today, Sheep without a shepherd. And it's from that context, from that feeling right now with those faces on his mind that he turns to the 12. He turns to us and he says, man, the harvest is ripe.

The harvest is right, but the workers are few. So pray to the Lord of the harvest.

That's why we are here. That's why we go home. We can talk and theorize and plan and dream, but we go home because they need to see Jesus.

because the darkness is still at work and we need to be the light because we are mighty warriors and God's given us exactly what we need to go do his work. So think about those names, carry those names with you, let's pray. Father, we are thankful that you do go with us.

We are thankful that we do not go into this battle alone.

but you have given us everything that we need. We lift up the faces, the names, the stories, the families, the people, the people that we are going home to. I pray for connections, for boldness. I pray for a supernatural intervention.

We pray that you would come quickly to make all things new. In Jesus' name we pray, amen.

All

Several years ago, I decided to go back and audit a class at Fuller. I got my ⁓ degree at Fuller. I went back to audit a class, and it was a special class. had a guy named Alan Hirsh in. You guys may have read some things by Alan Hirsh. He's kind of an ecclesiologist talking about how the church might look in the future. And sometimes I think he's nailed it, and sometimes he really missed the mark. But he was there in class, and for four days he kind of painted a picture and just talked to these guys. And I was in a class mostly full of Methodists and Presbyterians. And what he was saying I know didn't really sit real well.

with them you could tell from the questions they were asking. But after he left the class, he's gone, he's out of town. The first time the professor had a chance to get up and say something after he left, the first thing out of the professor's mouth was, well, I guess I should apologize for subjecting you to that for the last three days. I'm thinking, whoa, I loved what I was hearing, but evidently they didn't.

I just want you to know I will not at all apologize for subjecting you to somebody like Roy Moran thinking outside the box and making us think outside the box too. I don't know that you're going to go home and do exactly what he's done. I still don't fully understand why he would do church this way on Sunday at church another way during the week and then never the two shall meet. That didn't make sense to me. I'm going to pursue that with him. I think he won't mind me asking a few more questions about that. But I really love the idea that he actually came up with the idea of doing church on Sunday and church in another way. ⁓

think like that. We need to think like that. We need to put ourselves in situations like that. So we're glad to do that. We want to talk to you about where we're going. Now Clint, where's Clint? I got to quit lining myself up to speak after you because you almost had me in tears and I don't like to do that. That's right. And I'll fix it.

We've sent you up to bat and you're supposed to be getting on base and you're hitting home runs. So that's cool. So really appreciated what you said. But what did Clint do for us? He took us to the why. He landed us on the why. Why do we do what we do? Why? He landed us there, right? I want to talk about where. Where are we going? And I've got John here to help me do that. Because where we're going is a place that's going to require us to risk more than we've ever risked. We're going to ask you to do that.

You've taken a huge risk to move to town and start a church, but it's time to take another risk. I don't know what that risk is, but it's time to take another risk. There's always another risk. I keep thinking, Lord, I've taken enough risks. And he just kind of laughs and throws another one at me. And at a certain stage, I'm like, I think I've aged out of that? No, I guess I haven't. But I think God's going to ask us to experiment like we've never experimented before. And I think God's going to ask us to empower leaders around us like we've never empowered leaders before.

Lead in a new way. Lead without having to be in the room. Lead with such clarity and conviction that everybody that hears you knows exactly what needs to be done. And you don't have to be there. You'll walk in the room after the fact and they'll say, we took care of it. And you're to be amazed to see what the people of God can do when they're trusted and empowered. And there's a vision in front of them and they know why they're doing it. And so I got John here to talk about Antioch, the church, a picture of a church.

the New Testament church. John had the privilege of growing up, coming to Christ, finding Jesus in a church that was like the Antioch Church. Unfortunately, he also watched them as they kind of lost their mojo and kind of went away. And he's starting a new church at 64 because he wants to see it birthed again. Let's let him share his story here. Thanks, Phil.

Clint, I loved what you shared, thank you so much. Let me pray with you all together and then let's just invite, there's been so much that you've had and let's just ask the Holy Spirit to make room for a little bit more, okay, can you do that? Father, as we come to you, Lord God, we are so blessed by the gems that you gave us here as leaders.

And Father, I pray now that you would make a little room in our head and our heart as we hear the challenge from our leader, from Phil. Father, that you want to take us to a place that we haven't been before. But Father, we're grateful because you've been there. And you never asked us to do anything that you haven't experienced and know and prepared us for. Like Clint shared this morning, hail mighty warrior, the Lord is with you. And then you told him, go in the strength you have.

So Father, we do that. And Father, remind everybody in this room, you say in your word in Romans 15, 14, that every person in here, in Christ, is good right now, competent right now, and knowledgeable right now. In Jesus' amen. I am.

came to Christ in my early 20s. I found a church called Hope Chapel when it was four weeks old. I had been invited multiple times to go to this church. It was started by a guy named Ralph Moore. He had started the church in 1971 in Hermosa Beach with a group of 12 people, a bunch of hippies. Back then it was revolutionary to not wear a suit and if you wore jeans, you were like the Antichrist in the church world, let alone they were the precursors that moved

from pianos and organs to guitars, right? And so Ralph was a part of that, he and Ruby, they started this church, it grew massive, and as it reached close to 3,000 people, the Lord spoke to him and said, give away your church and go to Hawaii and start all over. And so he came to Hawaii with a group of people, including my wife.

⁓ She came over as a church planter, as a single woman, came over from Gardena, California to Hawaii, and we got married two years later. Hot dog. But I came home, I was four weeks old, and within a year, one year later, somebody who hadn't gone to Bible college, my profession was I was a nightclub entertainer and a white he lifeguard. That's what I did. Life was good. And I got saved. Pardon me?

We don't go there. I I wore the baggies not that you know the baggies the baggies okay the baggies and ⁓ Yeah, so I I got saved and I went to the church and one year later He hired me as a singles pastor It was so controversial I the first local hire for the Hope chapels in Hawaii that several of the planting team from California Left the church when they hired me

They were concerned because I was a local boy. I had a twinkle in my eye. I love to say how's it all the time. And ⁓ I had a temper too. And so Ralph hired me and when people said, you he's got a temper, and he said, well, there's one rule with John. We told him he can't hit anybody. And that was the only rule that he made for me joining his staff. And I followed it because I did. Well.

In the first 10 years that I was on the staff, and I could talk to you more about it later, I watched our church plant 30 churches.

30 in 10 years, I was number 30. And it blew my mind. It just blew my mind that Ralph came and he was so focused on what he did. He felt like God had called him to reach 1 % and he wanted it to be local boys. Now I'm half white and half Japanese. A lot of people are like me. They're half of the mainland and half of something else. That's what Hawaii's like.

And so he was called reverse racist by some of his own California people because this white team came over and they began to give everything over to the locals. Now I'm not a reverse racist. I love white people. You all are tasty and looking good. You know what I mean? So that's my Hawaiian side. ⁓

So please don't, I'm not saying that it's not a white thing or anything, because I know our country's really mixed up with that. But Ralph came in and he really empowered the locals. And so what we did is we began to, created a system. He says it's organic, right Phil? Everything, just happens. Where's, you know, Andrew says it's organic. And I would sit there, I'm looking at it, and my gifting is I can see things in steps.

And so ⁓ over as we got there, he goes, yeah, it just happens. It's the spirit. And I'm like, no, it's not. I mean, well, it is a spirit, but it's just like, but I told him I see five steps. And so I designed it. And it's the steps that we use in the Hope Chapel family throughout the world. But because we're in Hawaii, I just drew a coconut tree. And I saw five steps.

And it became the template for how we do church. Phil and I are gonna talk more about this because to be in Antioch Church, you need to do three things. You need to evangelize, which we heard about greatly the last couple days. You need to organize, which is set up a system, and then you need to deputize. You need to formally confer and say, go.

You go do what you gotta do. And so I watched us do it 30 times. I went out in 1993, my wife and I went to a city of Kapolei that was a suburb just starting. And in the 16 years that I pastored, we planted 13 churches. It was pretty awesome. I left the church to another person, and here's the radical thing, when Ralph left his church in Kaneohe and I left mine in Kapolei, the vision left with us.

One of the things that it's incredible, you're a part of a church planting just machine and you're cranking it out, but the people that are left behind, they get tired. Because they gotta raise up another children's church team, they gotta raise up another worship team, another set up team, another set of elders. There's a big chunk of tithing that just goes out.

You you always hear the romance of church, I would say it just like Ralph says, you know what, God just brings it back, but not right away. And there's these moments where you gotta make payroll and there's these big faith things that you're doing. But Ralph and I kept spitting it out and spitting it out. So when Ralph left, the person that took over says, we're done with church planning. So they stopped at Coneyhoy. And they moved to a Sunday Hillsong, let's blow it up model.

and they're still doing that to this day. My good friends are all there, whenever they, so anyway, I went out and so I left my church and the people that I left behind said, we're done with church planning. And they did the same thing. They wanted to do Sunday and that was kind of the thing back then. It's just like Hillsong was a model. There's other models now, but that became the model back then. I took a break.

And, because basically I was tired. And I was in my late 40s and I thought, I don't know if I want to do this anymore. I mean, I want to pastor a church, but I don't want to do Antioch anymore.

It's intriguing, it's frustrating. I actually had to take some time to just get my head on straight. I went and worked as an executive pastor for three years for one of my friends, helped him get a building, started a preschool for him. And then, you you guys know it, that nudge started happening. And all of a sudden I'm feeling like, you know what, I told Brenda, said, you know, I'm approaching, I think I can do it again. But I said, but we're not doing a church planning church.

We're gonna do a church like everybody else. And so I contacted ARC, they were excited, they said, you know, we know about you, and my last church was 1500, and he said, we're gonna help you launch large and get your money, and I'm setting up the launch large, and I'm excited, but we're not gonna plan. We're just gonna be big. We're just gonna go for it. And we'll do things, but we're not giving anybody away. And I confess this to you, that's how hard my heart was toward it.

It was hard.

Then a couple of my mentors, two of them who pastored megachurches in Hawaii, it was so God, they said, is it gonna sound weird? They're coming from megachurches. We feel like the Lord is, would you pray about, you and Brenda pray about starting out of a house and not launching large? I thinking, know, we're in a building, we're gonna do all this stuff, and I'm just gonna do these things, and I'm not doing the big thing. But when both of them spoke and they talked to Brenda, we both felt like the Lord was saying, you know what, start in a house.

So I dumped the launch large plan. I did funerals on the side to make money. A lot of pastors do weddings, but nobody's doing funerals. People are always dying, so you gotta do that. And I met a lot of people doing funerals. So I was a bivocational. did funerals and I planted my church. It grew to about 120, but we're not planting anybody.

I want to get them spiritually growing and everything. I don't want to see the coconut tree. And I'll talk to you about that in a minute. Then in 2017, Ralph Moore calls me, my mentor, and he goes, hey, I'm gonna be in Estes Park. Would you come up? And I just, you know, I'd just like you to help me. I'm gonna do a presentation on what we do. I said, sure. Ralph and I are really tight. You know, he's my spiritual father, my mentor. So I go up and I meet this guy.

And so Ralph starts speaking and he's, know, my mentor's wonderful but he loves to tell stories. And sometimes you're like, you know, know how people are telling stories and you go, get to the point.

about the tree, right, just like I'm driving you nuts. Talk about the tree. We want to hear about the tree. Tell us the system. And he just kept going on and on. Who interrupted? I don't know who it was, but finally somebody got frustrated and then he brought me up. I don't even know, but it was you. Phil was getting frustrated because he kept talking. And so finally- We were supposed to ask him, one of us was supposed to ask him a series of six questions in a session. We asked one question and he talked for 55 minutes and never actually answered it.

And I'm like, okay, we're done with that. So in the midst of it, what happened was he just, they expressed their frustration. Ralph got a little upset. So he kind of, in anger, just pushed me up there.

And I started answering questions. I started drawing on their whiteboard. And as people answered, I just, know when I'm in that situation, answer the question, tell the story later. As a matter of fact, don't tell the story, just answer the question. So I began to do that. So I think in the next session, they said, can John come up again? Ralph didn't talk. And then, that was our relationship. you know, so the joke around essays was that, yeah, Ralph tells the stories.

John interprets what Ralph is saying. And so that was our relationship. In that year, I got approached by a pastor in Hawaii, a pastor in Okinawa, and a pastor in Japan that says, you teach us how to do this? We wanna start planting churches. And you know how the Holy Spirit does it. As you're starting to talk about what you did, it feels funny because you're not doing it anymore. And all of a sudden I'm going, I'm becoming that guy.

You know, I was in high school, I was 100 this and I ran the 100 and this and you're telling stories about what you're not doing anymore and it's kind of disgusting. And I began to feel this holy kind of disgust in me as the Spirit of Lord was stirring and saying, you know what, you need to go back to what I made you do and I don't care about your age. I made you to do this. And by the way, church planting.

And the term that I'm using now is I steward an idea. I'm a steward of it. I'm not the architect or anything. I'm a steward of what he's given me to do. So after doing that, I'm getting excited, but then COVID hits. But all of sudden, it's just I take three small groups, and in one year, we blow them up to 21. And so inside I'm going, OK, I still got it.

COVID comes out, I'm trying to figure out what I'm gonna do, and how am gonna do this? Phil and I are talking, I said, Phil, maybe I'm not gonna do Sunday anymore, I'm just gonna do tons of house churches. And he's going, wait a minute, wait a minute. And other of my friends are going, wait a minute, wait a minute. So a young girl who got saved in my church that I planted, her whole family got saved. She's now home from college, she's 22, it's 2023.

And she goes, she goes, you know, Pastor John, this church is really good, but it's old. And she goes, could you do something with our church so that my friends can come? And I remember at our other church, we started a lot of churches. And you know how God will just stir somebody. And she goes, how come we don't do that anymore?

man, something's going on. Something's going on. So I pray for another year. Everything's going and finally in the fall of 2024, I decide, you know what? I'm gonna go back to what God designed me to do. Phil goes, why don't you come to assessment? And I know that sounds weird, a guy my age with my experience, why would you go? Because you know what?

If you're gonna do something, you're never too old to get coached. You always talk to people smarter than you. And what you do in a certain age, it might be different. I go to assessment and they say, okay, your vision's off the charts, you've got all this. He goes, but we do have an issue, remember? You're a little old. So.

you gotta do things differently. And they taught me at assessment, they said instead of raising up regular leaders, you gotta learn how to raise up executives. And it was an epiphany for me. It struck me in the heart. So I told him, I said, I'm gonna wait another year. So actually I'm gonna be 65. Clock is ticking, but I felt like, you know what, I gotta learn how to raise up executives. I don't know how to do that. So I spent a whole year learning that.

Met with my board, trained them, talked to them, and I said, you know what, I need you to step it up. And I've got an owner of one of the largest insurance companies in the western region. I've got a woman who leads the Republican Party in Hawaii. I've got a guy who's one of the top fire captains, and they're executives. You know that on Monday through Saturday, these guys are awesome, and they come to Sunday, and all of sudden they feel dumb because they don't know the word.

And all of sudden they go, I could do, I could pass out bulletins. And I said, I want Fire Chief guy in my church. I told Lynn, I said, you lead the Republican Party, lead us that way in our church. And I told Alex, I need your executive planning abilities because you do killer parties and banquets for insurance and you get all these things. I want you to rebrand me and market me. And so that's what's happening.

And so in September, Chapel, Kea'alepona will be born with my executive team. And the heart of what you're seeing is this, what happened to me and to Ralph and a lot of people and they plant is they get tired and they experience mission drift. That's what's in your notes. Mission drift happens. You get fatigued with the vision. You lose sight of what's going on.

You chase other things, you feel like you're too old, but for whatever reason, you walk away from what God has called you to do. What does the Bible say? His gifts and his calling are what? Without repentance. So by the grace of God, we're gonna talk about, need, know, what we're gonna learn as we study Antioch. I'm gonna tell you, the three words again are evangelize, organize,

and deputize, and Phil's gonna take it here, and then we're gonna take you quickly through 10 things. We're not gonna do everything today, but we're gonna begin to present this idea, and I'm gonna send you home with just one challenge, okay? Go ahead, Phil.

The Antioch Church actually begins the story of the Antioch Church, not in Acts Chapter 13. Follow along with me, grab your Bibles, Acts Chapter 13 ought to be where we're going to land. But Acts Chapter 8 is where we're going to start with the persecution ending, or coming out of the ⁓ experience with Stephen.

Saul approved of Stephen's execution, chapter eight, verse one, and there arose that day a great persecution against the church in Jerusalem. They were scattered throughout the regions of Judea, Samaria, except the apostles. Dozens, devout men, buried Stephen, made a great lamentation over him, but Saul was ravaging the church, entering house after house, dragging men and women off and committing them to prison. That's the back story. We get to chapter 11, and they're still in that type of a dynamic, the church in chapter 11, verse 19. Let's pick up there.

Now those who were scattered because of the persecution that arose over Stephen traveled as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus and Antioch. Okay, what are people, help me out here, just kind of popcorn, what are people who are going through persecution? What kind of stuff's going on in their lives? What's happening to these poor people? Throw some ideas out. What has changed for them? They're being persecuted. What are they losing? Friends, family, what else?

Jobs, yeah, you lose your job, but also do you now probably lose? House, home, Reputation, yep. Stability, hope, plans for the future.

Anything you had basically is thrown up at risk. That's what these poor people are going through. They're going through a process of being ⁓ separated from people they love. It says that they're being scattered, scattered, scattered all over the world. And it says that they're in Antioch. they were speaking the word or the gospel to no one except Jews. But there were some of them, men of Cyprus and Cyrene, who on coming to Antioch spoke to the hell in us also. They broke the rules. Boy, if I could take these guys through assessment and figure out what it is that makes them tick, that's what we're after.

We're after rules breakers. We're after people who ignore the rules unless they're really serious. Otherwise, they're just sort of suggestions. But we're looking for people who make things happen.

And it says, of them, men of Cyprus and Cyrene came to Antioch and spoke to the Hellenists also preaching the Lord Jesus and the hand of the Lord was with them. A great number believed and turned to the Lord. And that gets back to the Jerusalem church. You had to then come check it out because the Jerusalem church was all about keeping control. Whereas thank God the Antioch church kept the DNA of the original group. In spite of being told not to, they did it anyway. Now what's going on with these people? How did they grow the church in Antioch?

If you go back and look at the church in Antioch, just look at Antioch itself. Antioch was one of the Roman areas, one of the Roman cities. Very few people actually owned homes in Antioch. There was a lot of tenements dwelling, very crowded. In fact, the living conditions in Antioch would be like going to India today and visiting some of the major cities in India. It's like all these people in a square acre. And because of all those people on a square acre not having medical doctors and medical science and medical medicine, have modern medicine. These poor people have a

high death rate. In fact, we know from the historians that the death rate was so high in places like Antioch, they would send the Roman troops out into the countryside to kidnap anyone they could get, bring them back and they became slaves. And because they had to do that and because the death rate was so high, they were constantly doing that. So you've got a population in Antioch full of people who've been separated from their families, witnessed the death of their family members because of the disease that was rampant, who are finding themselves having lost control of their life and having lost almost everything that they have and who's coming to a

evangelism. People who have just gone through the same experience. Are you tracking with me what's going on here? This is the backstory of the Antioch Church. They did not land, hire a public relations company and all of a sudden advertise, hey we're going to have a big event on Sunday mornings, who wants to come? That was not how they built their churches and they didn't even necessarily do it through groups. They did it by loving the people they found who were going through the same stuff they were going through. It was easy for them to minister to the people because their life sucked.

Well, the people they're trying to minister to, their lives suck too. And the Antioch Church was born because they understood how to reach people who were going through what they themselves were going through, just loving their neighbors. And then I think forming these small churches, which then in a sense had to lay under the radar. We know they weren't gathering in large settings, because for one thing, there's no place for them to gather in Antioch. There's no physical building for them to gather in. Is this making sense? So what would an Antioch Church look like?

So we're gonna run through some of the traits. Go ahead and look at, we're gonna give you 10 things that Phil and I have extrapolated from the word and it's just again, because what we wanna do is we wanna lay a biblical foundation. A lot of times when people ask about Hope Chapel, they go, well that's a crazy thing, that's a Ralph thing, that's a John thing. No, it's a Bible thing. And so when we look at.

What does Chat GPT say about Antioch? This is the definition I got. The Antioch Church is described in the Bible as a model of diverse, mission-oriented, and generous community. It was a central place for early Christian outreach, a symbol of unity among believers of different backgrounds, and a key player in the establishment of the global Christian movement. The leadership of the Antioch Church focused on teaching and worship, fellowship, sharing the gospel, mentoring or making disciples, leadership development,

and church planting. They spread the gospel and planted churches throughout the first century world, setting a powerful example for future Christian communities. So the first thing, then we look at that what did they do that was so distinct? They preached and taught boldly. They were bold with the word of God.

And that's the thing, they taught about the living word. We heard, you know, when Clint talked this morning, in the beginning was the word, the word was with God, and the word was God, and the word became flesh. These were people that talked about having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. So they were big on evangelism, they were big on salvation, right? And so.

In addition to their boldness, so I would add this with the word bold, bold about the word, but they have to be an Antioch Church, you need to have a bold vision. You know, I think I'll try this. You know, maybe I'll do one, maybe I'll do this, you know.

And the only measure that we knew how, watched Ralph go out and say, you know what, we're gonna reach 10%, 1 % of Hawaii in 10 years. So when I went to Kapolei, it was a smaller town, said, well, I'm gonna, my boss praised that way, I'm gonna reach 10 % in 12 years of this. And both of us hit it. We went in the strength that we had and the understanding that we had and God honored it.

And I find that when people wanna do this is we start to look at our budget, we start to look at our people, and after we look at all our resource, well, we can do one. And we don't even ask God because we've thought it through with the resources that we have versus God's got some beehags, some big, hairy, audacious goal that he wants to give you. And the thing is you dream big first and resource second.

God, what do you want me to do? Okay, God, this is what I need. You start here, you're gonna end up here. So they were bold in their vision. They were bold in their decision, and this is the one that I'm gonna give it to you now in Acts 13, two, and this is the thing that I'd like you to pray about when we end this. Because what's the end in mind?

Acts 13 two says, the spirit of Lord said as they were praying and fasting, set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work that I've called them. Will you be a church that will create an environment where people will hear the voice of God saying, set apart this person, set apart this person, set apart this person.

and get them ready because I'm sending them out.

And that was the pivotal point, the difference in the Antioch Church. They led to the place where God, we want to hear you. We're going to prepare people because you're sending them out. This church changed the known world. They raised up people from within. They evangelized.

They organize, they deputize, they fasted and prayed and said, God, where do you want us? Where do you want us? It's what you prayed when you went out. But the stretch is, will you have the boldness to say, Lord, within my church, I don't know how we're gonna do it. But this is a decision that the first one you make in Antioch. God, will I have a bold heart and own the idea of, you know what, Lord? You can set apart anyone in my church.

belief.

even my worship leader.

I rebuke them. Even my children's church director, your number one evangelist, set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work that I've called. They were bold. Second thing, they preach a discipleship, lordship gospel. And the verse that grabs me is Romans 12.1. Therefore, what? says, in view of God's mercy, offer your body's living sacrifice.

And you guys know this, what is the therefore therefore? What are God's mercies? Chapters one through 11 is the most incredible benefit package of what it means to be a child of God. Therefore, because of the rich benefits of salvation. By the way, greatest book to teach for brand new believers is the book of Romans.

And don't be afraid of justification and propitiation. Don't dumb it down. Don't make it seeker friendly. It's justification. It's propitiation. Don't give away those words. Those are powerful words that bring hope and life and dreams to people. Let your people, and you know what? Don't treat them like they don't understand. Elevate their understanding.

These are powerful words. They had a discipleship, lordship gospel, right? And then there's a book called The False Promise of Discipleship. Has anybody read that? You need to. OK, Google it. False Promise of Discipleship. It's a free download. When you freak out on it, it's not a lot. It's a 90 minute read.

But in it, the authors talk about there's three questions that will change the world if every believer asks these three questions every single day. Number one, God, how can you be so good? Number two, God, how am I doing with the people that you've given me to love? And number three, God, how can I serve? Is that my phone doing AI?

Is that spooky?

I know, I know, okay, I don't use AI all the time. It just does this, it's just like, I don't know, we'll cast demons out of my phone later.

All right, but again, I'm the Pentecostal here, but I need some demon casting out of my phone, okay? God, how can you be so good? God, how am I doing with the people you've given me to love? God, how can I serve you? When I say that they were discipleship, lordship, the whole thing, that's why I can't stress enough, if you don't have any kind of discipleship pathway, talk to Matt. Go through Bonhoeffer.

Do the heavy lifting, because in the 10 months you won't regret, is you will develop something like this. And the other thing is teach the real gospel. Don't water it down, because the devil is not watering down his message. Send them out with real bullets, with a real gun. What's the adage? Don't give them a knife, do a gunfight.

The real gospel, he who is in us is greater than he who is in the world, right? The author and finisher of our faith. Know your gospel, right? So they preach a discipleship, lordship gospel. it's just, and again, and I feel like you start with let them understand the goodness of God. That's at the very heart of being a child of God. Every day, celebrate the goodness of God, not the scary freaky of God.

I am so glad I'm safe. my God, I run to the throne of grace and find mercy in my time of need.

Third thing, they preach the gospel for the rest of us. Simply put, in our church, in Antioch Church, everybody plays. Everybody plays. Everybody plays. And we need to wrestle with our theology, we won't do this right now, but at some point you gotta, that includes women. You gotta figure it out. You gotta figure it out, okay? And it's just like, even if you're saying, well they can't do this, but they gotta do a lot more than you let them.

And I'm just gonna throw it out. I'm family here, but it's just that I gotta read up on this because everybody plays. We are co-heirs of Jesus. Here's your scripture, Galatians 3, verses 26 to chapter four, verse seven. We are the priesthood of believers. First Peter two, verse nine. Revelations 511 says he has made us kings.

and priests. Treat your folks like royalty.

and they will act like royalty. You know, when I saw Clint putting all those names up and everything else, why I engage a system where I start a lot of small groups, and I'll get to it when I get to this, is that my mini-church pastors, they do weddings, they do funerals, they do baptisms, they do a lot of that stuff. And as senior pastor, I just get out of their way.

You know why? They're way better qualified to do that wedding. They journey with them every week in their small group. Why would I do it? Well, because you're the senior pastor. Get out of their way. Why would I dedicate their children? Their children grew up in that small group. Why wouldn't my children's team do it instead of me? Give it all away. Let them sign the certificate. no, that's only for the pastor.

Break those paradigms, why? You got royalty in your midst. They're royalty. Everybody plays. And that's the gospel in Antioch. And think about it, right? They were mixed. There were a lot of guys like me. They were hapahalis. That's what they say in Hawaii. That means half white. They were half everything in Antioch. There weren't a lot of Jewish players there. So everybody played. I just want to throw that out at you. Go ahead, Phil.

So number one was they taught boldly. Number two, they brought the discipleship, lordship gospel. Number three, they had a gospel for the rest of us. And we would say number four is they redefined their core assumptions. If you're in Bonhoeffer and you understand the language, this means they went upstream. One of the first things Bonhoeffer does with us is instead of going all the way downstream, which is basically most people who are wanting to put in a discipleship process in their church, they go find a product they can purchase, whatever it's called. They purchase it, they bring it back. That's downstream.

product. Midstream is coming up with your strategy. Upstream is rethinking everything. And it was rather embarrassing to be 59 years old going through Bonhoeffer for the first time and realizing I talked a lot about Jesus but I very rarely preached or taught the gospel Jesus himself taught which is the kingdom's here and messing around. Just pay attention you'll find it.

Does this make sense? They went back to core assumptions. They went upstream. And so Paul found himself saying in 1 Corinthians 9, hey, when I'm around these Jewish people, I pretend I am. Wait a second. Aren't you Jewish? And in his mind, not any longer. Or you go to 1 Corinthians chapter 10, he says, I give no offense to the Jews or to the Greeks or to the Church of God. He's found a third race.

They were accustomed to two races in the Roman world. got the Romans and all the people who liked them, and then you had the Jews who had a special exception. And Paul says, no, there's a third group now. We're challenging every assumption. We're different. Everything's different. I think it's in 1 Corinthians, or maybe it's Ephesians, Paul starts to kind of sense, quote the Shema, hero Israel, the Lord our God, our Lord is one. And all of a sudden he throws Jesus in there because he's rethinking assumptions. And what was it like for them to all of a sudden meet the Holy Spirit?

Notice so many ways, how many ways they refer to the Holy Spirit. They were stumbling over themselves to try to figure out words for this deity, this person of God that they'd never met. Every assumption was on the table and they were open to letting themselves think it through again and again and again. So they redefined their core assumptions and that's where I hope Roy helped you. Not that you're going to land where he lands, but he's rethinking things and it's helpful to be around people who are willing to rethink anything. It helps us move forward.

Not only that, number five, they taught extensively. They had a catechism. It says in Acts chapter 11, 25 to 26, Paul found Barnabas, brought him back to Antioch, and they taught for a whole year. Now, as much as we're wanting you guys to pick up the DMM behaviors, the discovery Bible study methods and things like that, I don't think that's what Paul was doing. I think Paul was unpacking scripture as we normally would when we're really teaching deep content.

Although I still think that the DMM methods and the discovery Bible study approach, those key questions, what do you like about the passage? What don't you like about the passage? What do you learn about God? What do you learn about us? Now, what are you gonna do about it? Those are great questions for new people, but if you're trying to teach leaders, sometimes there's time just to sit down and say, we need to walk through this logically. We need to walk through this verse by verse. And they spent a year preparing the people for them to be able to leave.

This is extensive training, which means we ourselves better get ourselves back to school. I think I've shared with you guys the time I complained to my elders at my first church, I feel like I'm going brain dead, I wanna go back to school. I can't, I don't have any money. And one of my elders very compassionately looked at me that evening and said, that's your problem, Phil, not ours. I didn't appreciate that. Although it accomplished what he wanted to do, it got me going.

So I called my seminary, this is before the internet. I know you can't imagine life before the internet, but I have very fond memories of it. You rode your dinosaur into the... was so peaceful, nobody could find me. And for the introvert, it was wonderful. I remember I called my seminary and said, what are the courses that are being offered next year? I then called the bookstore and said, this course, what would be the textbooks? They ran them off and I said, would you ship those to me?

I put myself back to school on my own. Nobody else needed to be there. I got my butt out of bed and started reading again because I needed to rethink things and I needed to come back and I needed to teach extensively. And how can I teach extensively if I don't read extensively? Words are our commodity. They're our tools if you're in the ministry. We take words, we shape them together, we string them in little packs, they deliver. If I haven't learned how to do that, how can I continue to minister?

and it takes studied intentional efforts. So they taught extensively in catechisms, even the school of Tyrannus. So. And when you look at Ephesus, Ephesus is basically Antioch 2.0.

If you study the Church of Ephesus and just really press into it, you'll find I think they planted between 15 and 20 churches out of there. It's pretty nuts. But they reproduce Antioch. And so the thing is that imagine if we have a room full of Antiochs.

that every one of you is because you're pressing in and you're finding ways to teach one another and you're finding third solutions, right? Win-win scenarios for people that are full-time, they can't go to another place. We have everything we need online and video, but you know what? You find ways to do cohorts, do it together. The next thing they said, number six, they kept things simple.

Now, some of you know this from me, most of you don't, but the core of what I do, the learning method and what I do with all my Hope Chapel guys and the people I mentor is head, heart, hands. Head, there's two questions.

What does it say? What does it mean? What does it say? What do you do? Read it. What does it mean? Do your exegesis or exegesis, however you want to say it, which is you teach from the beginning. What's the content of verse plus the context? What equals meaning? You begin to you study the period of time. There's all kinds of stuff, but you you don't shy away from when you're you're a good teacher. But that's what you do. You read the passage and you explain the passage.

That's our job, that's our privilege. But extend that privilege to rest of your people. So head, teach them how to do that. But don't stop there. Then heart is, what is one thing that is grabbing you right now? Because you wanna teach them how to hear the Spirit of the Lord.

Right, what's the example in Matthew 16? Jesus says, who people say that I am? They John the Baptist, you're this, you're Isaiah, you're this. And Peter says, you're Christ, you're the Son of God. And what does he do? He says, good for you, you just heard from God. That's our privilege to affirm people when they hear from God. That is the greatest gift, go, way to go. That's the Lord.

I don't know, I felt it. You know what, you just spoke something that's in Corinthians chapter two. Really? Because why, what does the Bible say? They have the mind of Christ. They've got the hard drive and at times the spirit's gonna stir them and you need to say that's in the Bible. And they're gonna go, whoa. Right? So head, what does it say? What does it mean? Heart, what is God saying to your heart? Then the third component, hands. What are you gonna do?

So this component is in every part of the training that I do. When I get leaders together, we read a book together, I say, okay, I want you to take it apart. The head part is we can read a secular book. It's your job to find scripture to support what you want to do. It's called apologetics.

Hey, you know, I read Jim Collins said this, that's really great. give me that Jim Collins thing in the word of God. I teach the seven habits, which people go, that's a Mormon thing. Well, I have scripture for all seven. I teach leadership, I teach it in the college, I teach it at the local high school, I'm about to do another thing and I do it for people that don't know the Lord. I don't apologize that I say my guideline is Jesus Christ in the word of God. People come anyway.

is I wanna teach them how to be great leaders. So head is what I tell my guys, okay, we're gonna read a book together, and it's just like, you know, read it, understand it, add the Bible to it, and then when you come together, my leaders come together and I have them read a book, I say, I wanna know that your book is dog-eared, I wanna know what grabs your heart. Then hands, what are you gonna do?

Right, I keep things simple, but I have a simple rule also. If you don't read, don't come to my house. ⁓ I'm sorry, Pastor John, I was all busy. I said, well, go busy yourself in the car, go read it, and then come in. I learned that from Ralph, kind of the hard way. I remember I only did it once. And after that, I always read my chapter. Grown men outside not being allowed in the house because they're reading their chapter in their car, because it's that important.

I'm not going to lower the standard. I'm going to say, you know, I want you here. Go out there and read it. Come back in. Why? Because God wants to speak through you to everybody else. Why? Because you're royalty. Act like royalty. So when you do simple things, and here's the other thing. Create a system, and I'll give it to you now. This is mine, and I can talk to you more about it. But find a system that is simple and reproducible. So in mine, I drew a tree.

And I think about a tree, it's rooted in the love of God. Now, how you do that is up to you. But if a guy wants to do a Hope Chapel Antioch, I say the journey to take someone who doesn't know Christ to become a church planter, there's five steps. Step one, let them find out, God, how can you be so good? However you want to do that. They're rooted in the fact that God is so good. Okay, number two.

create a mechanism where they can grow a trunk of authenticity. Character matters to God.

Once you know that God is good, then find a way. That's why, again, we didn't see it yesterday with Roy, but my thing is, you know what? I don't want to dumb down and make it church light. I want to see the disciplines that I see in Acts 2, 42 to 47. know, teaching from quiet time to a habit of the word. Fellowship. Are they in church going to a small group? Do they have a triad or a group of bros? Teaching fellowship, breaking of bread, prayer.

Giving, what's their financial relationship to God? That's a good character discipline. Serving one another, evangelism and worship. I pull eight things out of there. Whatever your spiritual disciplines are, the thing is, and here's the radical thing is, you don't have to control that. You lay it out there and then your leaders, they can control their own character development. That's how you find out who your pastors are.

Are they, you give them, say, you know what, hey, you can develop your character. The steadiness, the faithfulness, having a quiet time. My big measure for my pastors is tell me about your daily quiet time. Well, sometimes I hit and miss. said, well, I don't want you to miss. How nuts am I? I tell my guys, I do this, I've been doing this for years. I start every day on my knees. Because I feel like you gotta take a position of worship and honor.

when you get out of bed. The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases. His mercies never come to an end. They are what? They are new every morning. Great is your faithfulness. I don't know about you, but I need mercy and steadfast in love and I need to know that he loves and likes me every morning. I can start my day that way when I know he loves and likes me. Thank you, Jesus.

Character matters, chunk of authenticity. Third thing, branching out ministry, redefine ministry. It's not what they do in the church, it's what they do Monday through Saturday out there. Redefine ministry. It's not being an usher, it's not being a greeter, that's secondary ministry. Ministry number one is you're married to her. You parent them, you live next to them, you work with them. That's ministry. That's what we do.

Church on a Monday. Number four, fruitfulness has two parts to it. Bearing fruit for the Lord eventually is two things. Is Galatians 5, 22 and 23. Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. But here's the other measure if you want a church planner. Second Timothy 2, 2. Generations of people.

I want the guy that leads someone to the Lord and disciples them, but he's so good, this person disciples somebody, and that's so good that there's four generations. And the things you've heard me say in the presence of faithful witnesses and trusted, reliable men who are also qualified to teach others. That's your measure of a church planner.

A lot of guys are one and done. Or you're the entrepreneur, you pass on a study to somebody else. Be careful. You're cheating your church plan out of something that they can be stretched in. Remember, they're priests, they're royalty. Fruitfulness is Galatians, but it's also generational. Finally, you know what? Let them go.

You're either gonna make disciples, this is a model for that. You're gonna start a small group, that's good, but you know what? You got church planners going. A simple form, they did things simple. Next thing, we're almost done. They mobilize, number seven, the people of God. They mobilize them, and this is where I talked about it earlier. Guys that do mini church, I get them licensed to do weddings, they can do funerals, they can do baptisms. ⁓ I talk a lot about them.

At my other church, we had celebrations. Whenever we would get the leaders together, and I would get runners batons, and I wouldn't give them to the guys that were pastoring mini churches, I gave them to the guys when they raised up another and planted a mini church, we celebrated when guys did next generation. That became the measure. The measure of success, wow, you're doing really well. But the measure measure is when you give it away and do it again. Here's a baton, we celebrate.

celebrate your measures and what's going on. So they mobilize the people. I already told you about the leaders meeting that we made it easy. We even did things like we made special shirts. And if you served, we called it Team Hope. You couldn't buy it. People would see that we make a killer shirt. People want to buy it. They said, no, you got to serve to get it.

And we did that every year and it was so fun. I remember one point before I left, when I left at the 10 year mark, I think we gave out 1400, we had 1400 in our volunteer team at Ralph Church before we left. That was killer. Everybody wanted a shirt and Ralph just loved saying, can't buy it, can't buy it. And I'm like, oh, cut it out boss.

And then one of things we did is we made a lot of opportunities, and this is just stuff that I did. But when you're mobilizing people, I took a lot of teams to Asia. The church was very generous. I would take youth teams, and I would allow them to go. The other thing we did is high school kids led high school studies. Freaked out a lot of people. But we started early.

One more that I have. Number eight, they deputize and send out leaders. Deputize. And all I want to do is because I'm watching time here. With this one, you hear me say this, I've said it a few times, raise the level.

Don't dumb down anything.

When you're finally gonna lay hands on people, don't do it because you're desperate. Do it as a reward. Deputizing means something. Reward the labor of what they're doing. Don't anoint somebody and hope they get it along the way. I know that seems like, but you know, but this will help them. If I make them a leader or if I acknowledge them, this will incentivize them. No, it cheapens what everybody else is doing.

I tell you, you keep the bar up here, you'll get a lot of them. They'll seek the prize. There's something divine in them that wants to do this. When the Bible says he's put eternity in our hearts, there's something really right about pleasing the Father, feeling the pleasure of the Father in here. So they deputize constantly, they sent people out, and the thing is, this is the hard part.

Don't always reward the senior person in the room.

The person that's been there the longest hasn't earned the right to be the leader. When I was two years into the staff, one of the most radical things that happened when I was on Ralph Moore's staff, the executive pastor that was there was informed that at 24, after two years on a team, I was the executive pastor of the church. And it was topping 1,000 at that point. And I barely knew anything.

But Ralph saw this gifting inability and the executive who came over to plant it, Aaron Suzuki, became my silent mentor.

And it was one of the most humbling, exciting things that I've ever done. And I've learned that. When I was 40 years old, Pastor Jack Hayford took me on a long walk and he said, you know what, John? He goes, I feel like you need to act more like a spiritual father. And he goes, God is not a respecter of age.

By the way, if you have to tell somebody you're their father, you're not their father.

You act like a father.

bring the Father's heart to what you do. But I'm gonna tell you, when you do this, there are old men that need your Father's heart.

There are older women that need your father's heart.

Guys, you wanna settle in on this. That's why when we're doing this, we're not cheapening anything. But you're gonna find there's a lot of gifted people in your church. Treat them like kings, queens.

Bill's got number nine, which is a surprise. John felt like it was important and I have no problem being the one to do it. That would say that we are spirit dependent. He's of course out of the closet charismatic. And so we expect this from you, but maybe not so much for me. I was raised in the tradition. You guys know it, some of you, that I was taught that the Bible's here. The Bible is the canon. Everything has stopped now that the canon has arrived and God doesn't speak anymore.

In fact, I remember one time in seminary in class, somebody prayed for the Lord to guide us through our study so that we would have enlightenment. And the professor after the prayer was said, asked the person who prayed, why would you pray something that we know is not going to happen? Nobody wanted to pray in that class anymore. Unfortunately, I got out of seminary and discovered that God does speak. If you're willing to listen.

and you wanna be receptive to the Lord's leading. So they were Holy Spirit dependent. Acts chapter 13, they prayed, they fasted and the Lord spoke. I just gotta say, I would not have enough courage to start Nexus years ago if God hadn't led me to it very directly in all kinds of ways. I am not that crazy. I'm a little bit crazy, but not that crazy. I wanted to know he was in this. And so we pray for it. And.

I guess I would just encourage us, let's be overtly spirit dependent. Interesting things happened here recently. I'm not complaining and I'm not gonna name the church. I was at a church recently, one of ours, and it came up in a conversation on a Saturday with the eldership, and I'm not hiding this, it just came up that you have Parkinson's. Yeah, I've been diagnosed with Parkinson's two years ago and there's some little things like my hand sometimes flutters. And so I told them that. They didn't say anything about praying.

thought, and I was just sitting there, I was thinking, do they want to pray for me? But they didn't offer it, I thought, well, okay, let's keep the meeting going. We went to church the next morning, and as part of my sermon, I do talk about the fact that this is something I'm facing.

Nobody offered to pray except a lady who was a guest that was her first time ever in the building. She walked by me, said something, went outside, then came back in crying. She goes, Pastor, can I pray for you for healing? So we sat down in the foyer while everyone ignored us and she prayed for my healing. Thank God. But why are we so shy about this? Does this make sense? They were not shy about it. The Lord said, set apart these two guys. Okay, we're going to do that. That's a good move.

I think if we pray and we start listening, he does speak. I think I've shared the story about sitting down with Dallas Willard and saying, God doesn't speak to me. I was taught that he would not. And he said, whatever, what does happen? I, at that point in my life, I would just have vast passages of scripture run through my mind that I've never memorized before. I've read them, but I've never memorized them. But passages of scripture would run through. And suddenly in the middle of that passage, suddenly I'd have a sense of God telling me something. And I told him that.

When he sat there and he started to chuckle, not laughing at me, but sort of laughing with me, and says, well, Phil, don't you understand? You've told the Lord He can't speak to you unless it's through the Bible. You've given Him no option. He has to use the word of Scripture itself to try to get to you. Maybe if you just start listening, you'll find out there's other ways He wants to talk. And I have. And so should you. So should we. They were spirit dependent.

And you know, it's just like, and again, I really am honored that you welcome me. And my background is I'm an ordained minister of the Foursquare Church. And ⁓ the only reason why I'm not in it now is that when I replanted my church in Capole, by polity, you could only have so many Foursquare churches in the city. And they said, go anywhere on the island. And I said, you know what? I feel like God has called me here.

And so we parted as friends. I have a lot of friends in the movement. ⁓ I have a theology that's there. ⁓ You you've watched me. I'm not hopping on the floors or shaking or doing any kind of stuff or, you know, it's just like I do carry anointing oil all the time. So if you need prayer, I'm right here. I always have it right here. And but the last thing that I see in this and then I want to pray with you. They were risk takers. I don't want to tell you two stories and then we're done.

They took great risks. They ran with scissors, which is a part of our values here at Nexus. I had a guy on my staff named Mel, and he's a Japanese guy. Japanese, by nature, ⁓ we tend to be quieter. We tend to be very submissive, compliant. You know, it's just like we don't want to make waves. In the Asian culture, the nail that stands up gets nailed down, so we do everything as a group.

We don't like to you know, stand out. So we like to just serve. ⁓ We have three faces as Asians. We have our public face, which is always polite. We have our private face, which is swearing at you while we're being polite. Then we have our secret face that we may only share with one person.

So Asian culture is very difficult because you're dealing with three levels of communication all the time, which has all kinds of paranoia all the time. But that's my Asian side. Anyway, this Asian guy gets saved in my other church, my Antioch Church, Hope Chapel, Capole. And I get him in Mini Church. And as I watch transformation happen, this man comes alive. And you know what? He's really good at Mini Church.

And he has the ability to, 1 Corinthians 14 26, where everyone has a song in him, tongue, word of instruction, all of this must be done through the strengthening of the church. And he's a great facilitator, great discussion leader, and by the grace of God, he just can go back to the word. And he's confident.

So I leave my mini church with him. see that Mel can do it, so I leave to go start another one. And Mel, all of a sudden, it's just within six months, that mini church has given birth to another, and he just starts cranking. So I say, you know what? I need you to become my director of mini church.

So I bring him on my staff. He's an incredible graphic artist. So I pay him this much to do this much because he makes a lot of money in the world already. ⁓ By the way, you always want to pay somebody something. And even if it's a lot, you're just saying, I really appreciate you. Sorry I can't give you more, but I just want to thank you for what you do. Well, Mel comes to me. And we're into our church. And he goes.

He goes, know, John, the Lord said, I've been praying. he goes, I really, a year from now, I want to leave and plant a church. He goes, but in four years, I want to plant three churches. And I said, God is definitely not speaking to you. One, because I don't want to let go of my mini church director who's a stud. And I go, nobody plants three churches in four years. I'm a man of faith, and I'm an anti-op pastor, and I just said, is not God.

But he persisted, and finally I talked to his wife Jackie, and Jackie goes, that's all he talks about. And I had a dream about it, and I said, okay, so.

He gets together and I said, tell me your plan. I didn't want to hear the plan. He goes, he goes, you know, Alan, and Alan's another guy. He came to the church because his wife got saved in our church and his wife started talking about, this Pastor John this, Pastor John that. So he didn't know, he didn't like me. He came to the church to kill me, basically. He's like, who's this John guy that my wife's always talking about? So he comes in, you know, in the midst of worship, he starts crying during worship. I don't even have the message. He's already giving his heart to Christ during worship.

He goes, I think Alan's going to be the pastor. And he's working with Alan. He goes, I'm going to leave with the planning team. And they left with about maybe 80 people from our church.

And when we plant a church, for five months, everybody who's in the group, their ties are are banked. Our denomination would match it. And we have other people match it. They sent out with some good chunk of change. We're not building people in Hawaii. It's too expensive. So we find public schools or private schools. So anyway, Alan's going to go and I go. So tell me more. He goes, well, I figure I'll get go two years in on a coolie. Then I'll give Alan the church and I'm to take some of the people. We're going to go into why now? And he goes, I'm to take junior. And I think he's a

Pastor Junior's another criminal in my church and I'm going, my gosh. Because he's taking all these guys that are so brand new and they're just getting their lives right. Now I'm gonna send them back into the places where they're constantly getting in trouble with the police and you you guys have people like that too. But Mel, the Japanese guy, is gonna take all these big local Hawaiians. And he's the sole little Japanese guy with all the big locals.

And they love Pastor Mel. And once you know it, he takes out this team and two years later, he leaves. That church is still there. Alan, to this day, he's one of the most influential Hawaiian leaders in the state of Hawaii.

They'd go to Junior's place. And that church, it struggled a bit. think it's it's talked at about 100, but it's gone through several pastors, but it survived, it's still there. Mel goes with the remnant, and he's still in Pearl City. Now that one's small. It's about maybe 40 people. But he left the best of what he did with Alan and with Junior, and then the people that were faithful to him, they went and did that.

But.

God's gonna speak to people that way and they're gonna tell you things that are gonna blow your mind. I would have never thought that. I'm doing something and I'll end with this. I'm doing an outreach in my community called Whiskey and Jesus and it's on March 31st and one of my executive board members who throws killer parties for the insurance world, she's setting it all up. Well, she called me yesterday.

She goes, I just want to tell you what I did. Catch that, what I did. I said, what's up Alex? She goes, well, the insurance company won't cover our event, Whiskey and Jesus, because of the liability and the idea that people, if something happens. I said, oh my gosh, what are we gonna do? She goes, well, wait, there's more. So you're starting a new LLC.

Because if you start a separate company that's not a church, they can sponsor the event and the insurance covers everything. You go, what do you want to call your company?

That was my call yesterday. And I go, well, can I think about it? She goes, yeah. She goes, but you got to know by Saturday. And I said, OK. Because they got to speed it up. She has a friend who can accelerate this company in two weeks and get it done. And I said, how much is it going to cost? She goes, oh, don't worry about it. The board already approved all the money. I'm on the board too, by the way.

I don't know, but I, I said, and I said, goes, I just want to let you know, and it's just like, this is what's happening. Is that okay? I said, hon, that is so perfect. And I, and I just, thank you for doing this. I cried.

I'm an emotional guy. But see, I went to assessment a year ago and they said, if you wait a little longer and have the faith, maybe you'll be a little older and train these people to think like executives because I'm privileged at my age to do stuff with you now, to coach people around the world to do this. So this church that I'm gonna start, I can't pastor the way I did when I was 31.

I've really from the beginning, I've got to give it to a team. And so if ever I'm excited because when you come to Dallas in the fall, I'm gonna tell you what Antioch looks like in Hope Chapel led by a 65 year old man in 2026 with an executive team. We don't know who passed at the church of Antioch. Study it, but we know it was a team.

And we know they were so confident that their two all-stars could go out and go on missionary journeys. And when they came back, the church was still there. And it was making money, and it was cranking leaders, and it was changing the world. I want to pastor a church like that. I want to pastor a church where my guys are studs, where they call me and say, can I tell you what I did? And I did spend some money. And yeah, you got to sign a thing because we started a company, and you're going to love it.

So the question that I wanna ask you, we're six minutes over time here, Acts 13 two, the spirit of Lord said, set apart for me Barnabas and Saul through the work that I'm calling you. In the midst of all that Phil and I are talking about, the question that you need to take to the Lord is that one, am I willing to lead in such a way to hear God to give away my people?

Because if that's the tug of your heart, we'll work out the details. But you gotta make that decision. Because that's the first decision you make to be in Antioch Church. Am I willing to give my people away? Let me pray for you.

Father, thank you for this time that we have together. Lord, thank you for these incredible people, Lord. And again, we say it as we started it, they are good and they are competent and they are knowledgeable. Father, I pray that each day they would wake up and say, God, how can you be so good?

Lord, that we would be humbled and awed at saying, Lord, out of all the people in the world, you chose me to love the folks that I'm about to start a church with or that I have a church with. And now, God, I have an opportunity to treat them like kings and queens and priests and royalty and to inform them that there's a whole lot more that God has for them. And that we could possibly be a game changer in the community.

And throughout, we could raise up pastors and church planters.

So God, stir my heart. Are you calling me to be this type of church? Lord, are you inserting Antioch into my DNA?

Speak to my heart, Lord God. Speak to my wife, Lord in Jesus' And for the wives that aren't here, Lord, prepare them for this conversation. God, prepare my boards for these conversations. But Father, don't let these words fall to the ground.

Father, it's an exciting time to be alive. What an honor it is to be in your army, Lord Jesus. And Lord, as we start with the worship, this thing, here I am. Yes, Lord, send me in Jesus' name, amen and amen. Let's seal that with applause, Father, thank you.

Nexus: Church Planting & Le... (1:32:53)

Thank you for checking out the Nexus Church Planting Podcast. We hope this conversation was helpful and inspires you to lean deeper into your calling. If you want to learn more about Nexus, visit us at nexus.us. There you'll find church planting resources, upcoming trainings, events, and more. We also want to encourage you to subscribe so you never miss an episode. Leave a review or rating to help others find us.

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