17 John Honold & Tom Wymore | Being and Making Disciples

Andrew Estes (00:01.08)

Well, welcome everybody to the church planting. nope, already screwed up. See, there you go. Welcome everybody to the Nexus Church Planting Podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Estes, and today I'm super excited to welcome my friend John Honnold, who's been doing some coaching with Nexus for a little while, a longtime friend, and a new acquaintance, Tom Wymore, who has worked with John and Phil Claycomb we're we're gonna dive into a little bit of their story and back history as well. But I

I'm excited because there's been a significant work kind of developing in in John's being able to coordinate some different things, to invite a lot of key intentional disciple-making leaders in his life together to be able to to glean insights from one another, to learn together, to be able to move forward in a a better way together, making disciples who make disciples, multiplying to multiple generations. And Tom and

John have been doing a great work in that. And so I wanna welcome John. A lot of our our friends know know John, but John, for those that don't know you, would you give us just a a quick introduction or reintroduction and then would love for you to introduce your your friend Tom.

John Honold (01:11.803)

Well, aloha everybody. for those that I haven't met yet in a in our Nexus Ohana, that's Hawaiian for family. I'm I'm a pastor in Hawaii. I've been this is now my forty second year. Next month will be forty two years of full time ministry. I'm married. I have three adult children, three grandchildren. I've been blessed to be a part of what many know as the Hope Chapel Network, started by Pastor Ralph Moore.

he I was on his staff for 10 years and then in that time we launched 30 churches. And then I went out in ninety three and planted a church that I pastored for sixteen years. We planted 13 churches. took a break, which I'm gonna tell in a moment. That's how Tom came into my life. got back into ministry. and I'm about to, with Nexus's help, at the age of young sixty-five.

in the fall of this year, I'm gonna plant a new church in the city of Kapoole, Hope Chapel Cape Alapono. So that's where I'm at.

Andrew Estes (02:16.853)

Love it, man. Love it. So yeah, so I've known John for for a little while now. We had Ralph Moore actually come in many years ago to a a gathering that Nexus did and loved having Ralph here.

But one of the things that's funny about Ralph is that it's story after story after story. And so a lot of our practical questions kind of fell by the wayside to another story. And so we ended up bringing John in, as Phil would say, to interpret for for Ralph Moore some of the the practical impl implications and implementation of of a church planting movement. And so John has been a a a good friend and colleague and

John Honold (02:43.652)

Yeah, I remember that.

Andrew Estes (02:53.921)

grateful for for all the good things that he's done for for Nexus over the years and just that the ongoing relationship there. But we have a a a good friend. John, why don't you introduce Tom to us?

John Honold (03:04.292)

Sure. Tom is somebody that has been we were our our roots come back to the four square denomination. and Tom has been a long time pastor. he's a theologian. He at one time was a part of our Bible college. he's one of the smartest guys I know in the world. And but also but that's not what stands out about him. He has an incredible father's heart.

He has a a unique romantic, just real emotional connection to Abba Father, which I just love and just has radically shaped my walk in the Lord. he's one of my closest friends in the world as well. But Tom came into my life and he's a pastor and church planter, and I could just go on and on forever about him. But in two thousand nine, my life was falling apart and I I hadn't

I hit a crossroad when it you know, and you guys know the story with with issues of anger. And so I actually left Brenda and the kids for a year, went to Colorado where Tom was instrumental in creating a a a year of of just counseling and just helping me to to get to the heart of the matter when it came to my anger and other issues, took me on a journey that brought me to health and wholeness.

reconciled my marriage and my children, got me back in ministry and and in the process, the other thing gang, which is he considered me a friend, that I graduated in a sense that he was my counselor, mentor, and helper, and he still is my mentor and spiritual father. But along the line, since two thousand and nine, he extended friendship to me and and we've become very close friends. So

That's an incredible part of this bigger picture that we'll talk to you later. But my friend Tom, Tom wants you to tell a little bit more about your background to to all of us out there, but thank you for being in my life.

Tom (05:08.61)

Okay. Yeah, well Phil Phil and I started talking. We realized we come from the same heritage. I went to a Christian church Bible college called back then, Johnson Bible College, Johnson University now. And that was probably where with the right teachers, something about disciple making was ignited in me. And I remember even

Andrew Estes (05:23.044)

cool.

Tom (05:38.001)

going into the chapel one night and literally screaming out to God saying, Where is the church of the New Testament? We talk about it a lot, especially in that stream. But where where is it? Where are we making disciples? And so th that led me on a journey eventually to get to get more education training. I happened to be at the right time at the right place to study with Peter Wagner.

And so my doctorate is in church growth. And that opened doors for me eventually to become professor and then academic dean at our denominational training school. But all along the way, when I was pastoring, I I started pastoring when was 22 years old, which is scary when you think about it. But all along the way.

I found that I just could not not make disciples. That there was something inborn in me that said, if you're going to do this, you're going to live life on life, you're not just going to impart knowledge, you're going to, you're going to be able to say at some point, imitate me as I imitate Christ. And so even while I was extremely busy as academic dean at the college, I was I was discipling young men.

who later on hopefully made significant impact around everywhere. And that's also when I met Ralph Moore. And I met Ralph when myself and two other professors went up to hear him and some other church planting kind of guys. And the other two professors were greatly offended by Ralph because he just ripped traditional

Structures and training and Bible colleges and all that. But I loved him. And I I heard his heart, and I thought, this is what I've been doing and thinking about all my life. And here's somebody who's actually making disciples who make disciples and planting churches who plant churches. So he and I started back then, yes, this was before email. We started.

Andrew Estes (07:36.247)

Yeah.

Tom (08:02.264)

c letters. I still have the letters. where Ralph and I were writing back and forth. And that started a relationship that eventually obviously there's a lot more to fill in. I'm a grandpa of a husband twice over my first wife died from cancer about fifteen years ago. I'm now married and between us we have ten grandchildren. but

Andrew Estes (08:08.843)

Nice, nice.

Andrew Estes (08:29.43)

Wonderful.

Tom (08:31.842)

But I'm a papa. I just can't help at this point. I'm seventy seven years old, being called very c very clearly called to be a papa, to be a father to so many who had less than stellar experiences, shall we say, as did I, with their father. And then the Isakar thing, we just all came together for this

What is Jesus saying to the church, discerning the times? And since I've already written books and I help other people write books, it seems like that task to com collect all this fell to me. So that's enough.

John Honold (09:03.184)

Yes.

Andrew Estes (09:16.929)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, that's a perfect springboard 'cause this has been a r a really interesting thing from from my perspective over the last couple of years that that John was mentioning that he was kind of recruiting and gathering a a really motley crew just to get together to talk through disciple making and intentionality and just guys from a lot of different contexts, guys from a lot of different cultures and just to be able to all bring together and say, Hey,

what's what's going well, what's going right, what's working, all the different things. But John, I would love for you to just share a little bit of the the vision and the heart behind the genesis of that gathering that you guys did a couple of years ago.

John Honold (09:53.721)

Again, you know, just going back to my mentor Ralph, when he he had an idea when I was I was on his staff in the eighties and and and he and he said, You know what, I'm I'm gonna bring together a bunch of my friends. if they can get to Hawaii, I'll I'll put in a hotel and I'll feed But because I want to hear what God is saying. And he and he basically from first chronicles, you know you all know the scripture in in chapter twelve, verse thirty two, the sons of Issachar who had understanding of the times, to know what Israel ought to do.

And he says, so basically he said I want he challenged a bunch of folks out there to he he said write a ten to twenty page paper about something that the Spirit of the Lord is stirring in you. He you know, he just kinda threw a wide net out there. And back then it was it was folks in my life. It was Roy Hicks, Dan Brown, Wayne Cordiero just a bunch of folks that were kind of iconic in the four square denomination.

And then it was me. I was in my late twenties and I was the only young gun in the room. And these guys were in their thirties to forties to fifties. And and I wrote my first Christian paper. And we presented an overview of our papers, Andrew, at this at this weekend, and and then Ralph published it.

called it book Understanding the Times. He did it twice. I was a part of both of that. So fast forward to twenty twenty-two and as I'm interacting with the people now I'm you know I'm besides pastoring Hope Chapel, I'm I'm I'm connected to various pastors locally and globally and then Phil and I are connected. And I'm thinking, you know what, all of a sudden, you know, I ought to, you know, we're we're talking about discipleship it's the buzzword of the church of the past decade and plus.

What if my f I asked my friends in the context of where they're at, just write to me, talk to me about what it means to be a disciple and to make disciples. And you write a 10 to 20 page paper, and then if you can get to Hawaii, I'll I'll house you, I'll feed you, I'll take care of you. And we're gonna spend a weekend talking about what God showed us as we wrote these papers. So we we my friends agreed, and and including Phil.

John Honold (12:21.22)

We we came to Hawaii in November of twenty twenty three, spent an incredible four days together, presenting papers, and these are people that were all connected to me, but now they were connected to one another. And it was it was a powerful, Andrew, a powerful, powerful Saturday. And presented what was on our heart. Then I got Tom after as our general editor, and I said, Tom, let's make a book.

And he was very gracious. His term that he uses of all of us authors to be, it's like herding cats. And but getting us because it's one thing to present a paper, but now you got to edit it, you gotta do the refine it and everything and get it ready for publication. But Tom stewarded that process for us. We created our first book, Be Go Make Disciples, which Andrew has made available. You know, he he's given you all access to Phil's chapter.

And then the opportunity if you want to get it on Amazon. Well, we enjoyed it so much that we just did our second one last year in November of 2025. People came to Hawaii again and Tom's in the process of hurting the cats again as we're refining our our papers. we've added a few new folks to the mix, including one of the guys that's on my team. and and it was this one is is is is a little more I I'm

We're more like, what is the Spirit Lord saying to you? So I just cast a wider net this time. And Tom is in the process of putting it together. He can talk to you more about what this one's going to be like. And we're hoping to release this in the fall. The bigger picture picture, Andrew, is that is I really believe that that we have a privilege and responsibility of taking what we've learned and and to write about it, to record it, to make it transferable to others. And so the long term.

plan. I Tom and I have started a company, Euro Publications, is that I wanna if you can write a chapter, you can write a book. And so what we're gonna do is in the process, we're gonna be in begin to create a stable of writers that begin to produce works. We're gonna be jumping into the Nexus world, my pastors that are in Japan and Okinawa and even locally, but we just wanna give opportunity. We and

John Honold (14:42.242)

In the future moving forward, as the Lord would allow us, I'll create places where you start with a a chapter, collectively, you know, read with other promising authors and experienced authors with the idea of publishing collectively and also individually.

Andrew Estes (15:00.385)

Yeah, yeah. That's really interesting. So was was Phil a part of this last one that you guys did last year? That's awesome. So yeah, yeah, so the the first one was intentionally more on just disciple making and this one is just a little bit more on the spiritual formation type of process or like what is this guy speaking to you in general?

John Honold (15:05.914)

He did, yeah, he he did it again. Yeah, so

John Honold (15:19.61)

Tom, go ahead and why don't you just share, you know, because you've you've read them repeatedly and you're putting it together. So the gist of our second work.

Tom (15:24.975)

So the the second work, John when he called us together, referenced Revelation two and three, what is the spirit saying to the church? And so each of us was w felt a lot of freedom to bring that kind of what's stirring in our heart. So I'm working from memory here, but

Andrew Estes (15:45.984)

Interesting.

Tom (15:52.557)

We have a chapter by our Hawaiian pastor Kenneth on keeping the fire burning, a lot on prayer and personal fire. very oriented towards traditional church format, the pulpit, preacher, which was a little hard on me given my house church background and all that, but

So but a very passionate chapter that I have finished editing. That cat is herded. So yeah, and then so then I I'm gonna contribute a chapter that's gonna be more an analytical of what's hurting and broken in the Western Church, but from a redemptive sort of look, and what should we do about that? And I actually have Peter, Paul, and Mary.

John Honold (16:24.474)

Good job, buddy. Good job.

Andrew Estes (16:26.593)

Got that one down. That was good. Well

Tom (16:47.783)

visit from the first century and give us their input as to what they see when they experience the Western church. yeah. I had to

Andrew Estes (16:56.737)

Interesting.

John Honold (16:59.556)

Now Arlen wrote about his was more on tech what was it on technology or social media?

Tom (17:03.563)

His Ar yeah, Arlen's is Arlen was the new ad in and he was really really good. He wrote on r retr restoring biblical life and study and all that to the church and particularly addressed how AI can help or hinder. so his his blends in really well with what I said as a theme in terms of return to biblical literacy.

Which means not n just knowing it, but living it. And then let's see, John well, your chapter's later. Mark's gonna write has written a chapter on the Western world's tendency in the church to pick a leader who's a superstar. his chapter is called The Leaders We Choose. Very insightful. Mark's a very insightful guy. Phil's

Andrew Estes (17:37.122)

Yeah.

Tom (18:02.783)

set up to talk about this'll surprise you of course, leader care.

And does it sound a little familiar? and how that fits into the making disciples, multiplying churches and all that. and then John is writing about okay, Fumi. Yeah, Fumi Fumi actually adds the a really unique flavor because he's very, very bright and very well read and he

Andrew Estes (18:09.319)

Sounds familiar. Yeah.

John Honold (18:11.288)

Mm.

Andrew Estes (18:19.106)

Yeah.

John Honold (18:23.406)

Fumi, before me. What about Fumi from Japan?

Tom (18:37.773)

But he brings he understands Japanese culture and is able to then look at hopefully deculturalized truth, if there is such a word, and apply that to disciple making. And so he's he's written a chapter called something about avoiding the diesel gospel. And what he's talking about is what does it look like to make

culture disciples in Japan. and how do we get rid of running diesel in our in our vehicles that are designed for gasoline. It's cute. And it's very

Andrew Estes (19:16.759)

Hmm. Yeah.

John Honold (19:16.954)

Well, it's interesting too, Andrew, because it's just like we're so we're so used to American metaphor and Western metaphor. So when you invite people that are non Western in culture and they as you get to know them and they use their metaphors, you know, Tom and our scratch are going, What are you talking about? What does that mean? And so it's fun when you bring in a Japanese author, when you bring in a Hawaiian author. Arlen is

Andrew Estes (19:34.518)

Ha ha ha.

John Honold (19:40.783)

He's he's also Japanese like me, but he's more Japanese. And so but but he's flavored with a local Hawaiian style. So and so the the eclectic way that that you bring a group together and again you hear it's like it's like a snapshot the seven churches of revelation. Each one has a unique message, right? And and so we've stumbled into something that, you know, it's just well the guys that are in my life I consider, you know, the

friends and brothers, you know, mentors and coaches, you know, and people in my life. And then it we walk away with something so much bigger. The guys are interacting with one another. They're we're serving one another in various ways. And so the the fruits of coming together to write a book are beyond that now. You know, in the relationships that were created.

Tom (20:30.606)

Yes.

Andrew Estes (20:31.329)

Yeah. Yeah. What were for for the first symposium that you guys were talking about, talking intentionally about making disciples and all of the different aspects that kind of came out of that from people's experiences and their their thoughts on on leadership and development and you know intimacy with God, all of all of the things that you guys really discussed. What were what were some of the things that that really stood out to you? And and obviously, you know, just

With you guys being seasoned in ministry, 60s and 70s, moving through quite a bit of content in your years in ministry. I'm I'm sure there probably wasn't anything that was completely brand new, but when you when you got it all together and you sat with the body of work or you sat with the entire group of leaders there, what were some of the things, John, in particular, that just really resonated with you or stood out to you in this season?

John Honold (21:26.202)

Well I g it's interesting. A couple of things stand out right away. my somebody that I've known forever who's named Norman Nakanishi, he he's not he's was in the first one. He pastors a a network of churches called Pearl Side in Hawaii. And he's someone that was mentored by Ralph. I re he used to sit in with us in the eighties in our staff meeting. he's since retired. He's he's in his early seventies, but he has a network of churches. He pastors

You know, one of the churches he's left behind is considered one of the mega churches in Hawaii. It's just incredible. But they're a church planting movement in Hawaii and worldwide. Norman talked about really the heart of that he believes and I I Tom and I share as well is the the need to invite the supernatural power of God. Mark sixteen says, and these signs will follow those who believe. And he talks about where

Tom (22:04.535)

Mm.

John Honold (22:24.846)

The power of God fits into as God manifests Himself as as the witness of a God who is bigger than we can imagine. And the and and that God shows himself. You know, not you know, the miracle of forgiveness, which people sometimes think, that's not a big deal. It's huge. But physical healing, you know, people that are that are ensconced in a behavior that they go, I don't know, why I'm just caught. I just I don't know how to get rid of this. But

Norman talked about just the the plethora of the experience of the supernatural. So that was one. The second one was my friend Kenneth Mukokani, pastor of Kawaihao Church, Hawaiian, almost a hundred percent Hawaiian, pastors what is considered the Vatican of the Pacific, the pearl of Hawaiian community, Kawaiihao Church, over a hundred forty years old. It's just incredible legacy.

And he talked about gener the generations in his life. He's he's an incredible gift of multi-generations of parents and grandparents that loved and walked with Jesus Christ and were instrumental in shaping church and church planting in Hawaiian culture, establishing educational pathways that were non-traditional. But again, but but Hawaiian community is highly relational. Just talking about just relationship.

And and the power of what is, you know, again, the word ohana in Hawaii family is so important. So Ken talked about that. And then one more. you know, obviously Phil's was incredible and it's just like you've gotten to read it in there. So I'll let you you guys look at that, but please read it. But then again, I think that Tom Wymore, I guess I'm gonna highlight him because Tom's always big on the father's heart.

And he could talk about that more. But I think that one of the gifts that I do in introducing Tom to so many people in my sphere, and he he helps me greatly in all the different places that I go is he really has a romantic, I keep using that word, intimate. He he's just in love, deeply in love with Abba Father, and the health of interacting every day with a God who is really good. So

John Honold (24:49.216)

but that's that's just a snapshot of some of the things there. But those are the the the three that stood out to me.

Andrew Estes (24:56.161)

Yeah, that's good. How about you Tom or Tom, were you were you at the symposium or you just had the the the privilege of being able to like edit everything?

Tom (25:00.94)

yeah. yeah.

No, I was there. Well when John said, Do you wanna come to Hawaii? We'll pay for everything except your flight. My my yeah, my wife said, Yes, we're going. So Yes, we are called. So and I wouldn't miss it. I mean, I'm I'm kind of an introvert, but life on life and relationships are obviously the core of the kingdom. And

John Honold (25:04.496)

So he he was there.

Andrew Estes (25:11.117)

It's hard to turn that down for sure.

You'll do whatever you need to do to make this happen. Yeah.

Tom (25:33.923)

so yeah, I was there. I think for me, besides watching the interaction while we were together and how quickly we were able to, because of mutual trust and all that, how quickly we were able to go deep and go off script, as it were, and end up ministering and loving one another, ministering too. but Phil's chapter was one of the best, I thought.

Because he he well he's a very, very good thinker, obviously, but and he also loves Dallas Willard like I do, so he he went way up on my scale right there. But the way that he explained what's gone wrong. I mean in terms of my gosh, how come we have so many people who are churchgoers but not disciples? Well, if we don't preach a discipleship gospel

And make that upfront and personal, then we're gonna get what we whatever we prepare for, that's what we're going to get. Whatever we proclaim and and see a response to, that's that's gonna be the result. So that for me was very insightful. Norman's presentation struck me deeply because they the whole movement starts intentionally.

with the idea of making disciples and and of doing it life on life, which is if you read my chapter, that for me that's if you want to do disciple making the way Jesus did, you have to make it somehow life on life, even in our culture. And Norman did that from the very beginning, they made disciple making the core of what they were about. And then they

That resulted then in small groups that were oriented around and targeting making disciples. And so there was built in multiplication. And then he said it it's probably in the book. we're not a church with small groups, we're a church of small groups. But when you probe deeply more deeply, they're not just small groups like some churches do, they are disciple making groups.

John Honold (27:50.948)

Yes.

Tom (28:00.327)

And for me that was like, well that sounds like the New Testament. That sounds like the Bible. And so those those two ch and then of course hearing a Japanese perspective on disciple making, influenced deeply by Ralph and by John, having Fumi add his voice was for me as somebody who loves cross cultural stuff anyway.

That was very, very powerful. So And then John ta John writes about the power of the three, and since we've been part of the three, that one obviously was very impactful.

Andrew Estes (28:34.059)

Yeah. Yeah, that's good.

Andrew Estes (28:45.163)

Yeah. Hon honestly, John, I I really loved your chapter, man. Of just being able to to walk through that. I'd love for you to just unpack, for those of the haven't read it, just unpack a little bit of your chapter, what you have been resonating with. I know you taught on it a little bit back in in March this year when we got together for ThinkNEXT But yeah, just the the power of the intimacy with God and the things of that nature. Would you just share a little bit of that?

John Honold (29:08.836)

Sure. Yeah, I think that the end of it is is is you know I it that I I I see Christ, the Son of God, who's fully God, is also fully man. And we we we see Jesus as he walks the earth, he has this incredibly unique and powerful relationship with Abba Father. And and so when I watch Christ and and just the way the intimacy of trust and connection and I only

Do what the Father tells me to do. I only say what he tells me to say. That that trust, that that that the intimate nights, that in the midst of all that's going on, the ability to pause and walk away and be with Abba, that's something that has radically shaped my daily walk with the Lord. You know, that, you know, Psalm 143:8 says, Cause me to hear your loving kindness in the morning, for in you do I trust.

cause me to know the way in which I should walk before I lift my soul into you. So that has shaped that why wouldn't I I'm I refuse to leave my house without an intimate connection with Abba Father and to ignite his peace, which is already a gift through Christ in me, and to to leave my house with the peace of God and the anticipation of God. So intimacy. But the second thing that that I end with is the power of the three. Christ who has intimacy with

Father and Holy Spirit. So he has his BFFs already. He's in the best community ever, when you think about it. He chooses to in the midst of all that he does, he models that he has Peter, James, and Johns in his life. And and as you look at it, there's there's little snapshots when he tells them, he goes, he shows them things, a transfiguration. He they see a healing, but each time he says, You know what, don't tell anybody about it.

Tom (30:38.732)

Okay.

John Honold (31:00.26)

And it's not that God's been on keeping secrets, but he begins to model the idea that we we all need, especially men, we need people that are connected to us. You know, Andrew, because I have golf buddies, I have sports buddies, I have all kinds of things. And if we're not careful as pastors, we can talk about the work and what we're doing and all the things. But we never get to the marriage, the kids, the parenting, you know, the the the struggles.

The oops, or the my gosh, I hope they don't, you know, ask about that or and those little areas of doubt or insecurity, sin and or struggle. And so at at the heart of it is is that I encourage people in our profession that do you have a Peter, James, and John in your life?

Have you extended yourself beyond ministry talk and business talk to get to the heart of the matter so that you can be a better Christian, a better husband, a better father, a better grandfather, and and a better pastor. And so that's the heart of what I talk about, that to really be a disciple and make disciples, intimacy with God and intimacy with just a couple bros. And for you ladies, a couple broets, right? It's just like but that you know, that you

same same sex couple friends that are there, that that just that heart connection. But that's radically shaped me, Andrew, in the last seventeen years.

Andrew Estes (32:35.595)

Yeah. Is that a Hawaiian term, broet? Is that a

Tom (32:38.478)

Yeah.

John Honold (32:38.68)

But no, it's just yeah, it is. Yeah. It's just like I'll I'll figure it out. But yeah, I have a lot of those. You know, I'm gonna come out with some unique terms, but thank you for bro and bro end.

Andrew Estes (32:46.989)

I appreciate it. Yeah. No Tom, you I mean you mentioned earlier that you kinda came out of house church type of stuff. Are you still c involved in stuff like that or are you at an established church or or more prevailing model church?

Tom (33:01.313)

I'm at a yeah, I'm at a a pretty traditional charismatic church right now. but I got introduced to the whole organic church world wow twenty years ago. and just immediately fell in love with the simplicity. Neil Cole was very influential, his book

and got to meet him and a bunch of other people in that whole world, I became so visible in that that that my denomination asked me to be the National House Church encourager, which was a short-lived role because traditionally highly structured churches really can't sell much to a house church movement. But some friendships grew out of that. So

I've stayed connected to the whole organic church world, one way or the other. But after my first wife passed away I came back and ended up here in Houston where one of my best friends pastors and I met my wife and that kind of sh shifted me back into the traditional church world because she didn't understand house church at all at that point. So

Andrew Estes (34:22.913)

Yeah, yeah.

Tom (34:23.033)

But I'm still my my heart is still there in the organic s as simple as possible. In fact I have to be careful that that bias doesn't show up when I write. So

Andrew Estes (34:35.071)

Yeah, no, I I I mean I asked because it's interesting as I engage so many whether it's church planters or established church leaders that really want to get very intentional about disciple making. And I think it's you know, no shortage of ways to to kinda say that the the church prevailing model in in North America is over programmed and under discipled. And being able to, from your perspective

you know, having lived through so many different versions of of the church, having come out of a of a house church and being part of more established things and denominations and and beyond, what what do you think is you know, maybe from your learnings from the symposium or just stuff that you've held on to for for years prior to that in intentional disciple making, what do you feel like is maybe working well for prevailing model churches to kind of pick up on?

to are are the are they letting go of certain things? Do they need to to begin to do things differently? Or or what do you feel like is working well in the disciple making of kind of prevailing model churches?

Tom (35:42.967)

That's a good question. A lot of churches well, as you know, as we've already mentioned, th there's a lot of talk about disciple making. I I believe that's the Holy Spirit, of course, speaking to the body of Christ. But the ones that are the things that are constant, as far as I can tell, both in scripture and in the disciple making movements that are really transforming country after country right now.

Is they're they're characterized by relational connection. There has to be life on life, and there has to be a deep commitment to following Jesus to the point of obedience. So there's a there's and it's not the other part is the learning is not so much focused on information but on relational transformation. so

If if I one of the things I'm doing right now, for example, is I took Neil Cole's life transformation groups, which he writes about in b in his book, Organic Church, I think, I've simplified it. In fact, I'm going to share it with teenagers this weekend. we'll see how that flies. But I've modified it down to where it's just two or three of you guys, two or three of you broettes.

Andrew Estes (37:04.618)

Ha.

Tom (37:12.205)

Get together and just spend an hour a week somehow and do the daily check-in and all that. but if we can do something to help people think of disciple making as life on life, where the person honestly can say, follow me as I follow Jesus, or imitate me as I imitate Jesus. Now, our corporate structured models.

And our our Western culture, of course, we think of disciple making as in the transfer of information. That's not what it is. It's the transfer of heart. Yes, there's information. I mean the the early disciples knew more scripture than any modern day believer. They just memorized the whole Torah, even and all that. So the so there is information.

John Honold (37:45.893)

Yes.

Tom (38:04.761)

But the information has a purpose, and that purpose is to bring us into that relationship with God and then express itself through relationship with one another. so the most of the best my and what I've learned, this you're right, I've had a bazillion different views. But what I've noticed, even church my church here is very vertical and very, very traditional in its structure. But

I'm discovering little discipleship groups that have formed spontaneously without permission all over the church because believers instinctively recognize that they need to be connected to one another in order to follow Jesus. And so whatever we could do as leaders to encourage life on life, intentional focus on obedience, lots of scripture, but not f just for information.

John Honold (38:47.738)

Yes.

Tom (39:04.295)

then those things seem to be the things that bring the most life and the most multiplication and impact.

Andrew Estes (39:13.515)

Yeah. Yeah, I appreciate that, John. John, when you are, you know, considering, you know, moving into church planting, obviously at the young age of sixty-five. Moving into yeah. which is phenomenal, by the way. You know, you're you're probably moving into this church plan a little bit different than previous ones. And I'd be curious as to, you know, the just the overall strategy of we're gonna do this, we're gonna do this, and

Tom (39:13.687)

I'll stop there.

John Honold (39:23.6)

Аллилуйя.

John Honold (39:32.495)

Yes.

Andrew Estes (39:40.428)

you know, that's pretty much it. You know, that we we cut out the fluff and we just do stuff that is is moving people on mission. or I assume so. You know, what I I'd love to hear from 'cause 'cause you've been coaching some of our church planters. We're we're in the mindset of church planters, the guys that are getting ready to launch from start. And so they have the the luxury of being able to launch a church with a blank slate, right? They don't have an over programming mentality already off the bat, you know, where they have

John Honold (39:53.146)

Yes.

Andrew Estes (40:07.083)

things every single night of the week and every every day, every morning, all of those different types of things that just fill our calendar with the superfluous things that sometimes we call ministry. From a from just getting started, what do you plan to do practically just to be able to, this is what our church is going to do to execute the the Great Commission?

John Honold (40:27.31)

Well, I think that in this time around, and this will be the one, two, three, the fourth church that I planted in in in my lifetime is is I that how I surround myself, Andrew, I'm thinking in terms of I'm looking for more more executive type leaders, that from the get go. That when I was in my thirties, I'm

I'm you know, everybody plays, I believe, you know, if that's one of my values, First Corinthians 14:26 everyone has something and bring it, right? The body of Christ, First Corinthians twelve, you recognize abilities and bring it out. But this time, because I'm older, I the I can't I'm not as hands on. When you're in your when you're in your thirties, I was thirty-one when I planted my first church, you know, you know, I

I'm coaching the guy that's running service, but I'm also showing up in the morning and setting up the chairs and unloading the van and you know, where do you need me? If if there's a hole in the worship team because I'm I'm a guitar player, I can fill in I can fill that hole. There's a lot of things that I can do. I can slip here and there. And and I realize that I can't have that mindset because I'm not gonna be able to last to produce at this season of my life the church that God has called me to to produce.

And so I've selectively as I've began to go out there and assemble my launch team, as I'm assessing the different people, who are the people my launch team that I'm gonna really pour into? And I and I've and I've looked for the leaders among the leaders. And so Andrew, once I've d found that in the last 18 months really, because I delayed the launch because I thought I was ready, then I actually went to Nexus Nexus Assessment.

in the summer of 2025 and realized that I wasn't ready because I was still approaching church planning as a 30 year old in my mind versus reality of I'm 64 now 65. And and that my people weren't ready because they were they were looking at it well Pastor John and I'm still coming across as well I can play worship. I can do this I can do that. And it's like so I had to take a step back.

John Honold (42:46.924)

And begin to say, who are the executives? So I did. I began to identify, okay, that that person's really good at marketing and event planning. Okay, this person is really good at fundraising. This person is they have the potential to lead my mini church ministry. So instead of me being hands-on with every small group leader, I need to raise up a man and a woman that will be my coaches for me. And so ever things that I naturally did and I've done well over my life, I I began to give away. And but

But I wanted to do it at a quality level, Andrew. So it took longer to bring these guys to the place where I felt good. So that's what I've done. I've I've focused and been purposed in raising up executive leaders to lead the I just deal with the children's church leader, just with even the worship guy. I've given away all tech and and anything that I do and I and I've just reduced how much I get involved with the detail. And

And that's been a major thing going on. I do want to add to what Tom said about the things. when making disciple, it needs to be relational, it you know, which means life on life. But the obedience, I would add, what what Tom and I have discovered over all the years is obedience rooted in loving a God who we believe who is good. It's not fearful obedience or whatever else, but do you believe that God?

Because that's critical. That's critical, critical, critical. And so the other thing about making disciples is that is churches are always in a hurry. We got to make disciples. Okay, go. And then we defer to okay, well let's have a class and let's just load everybody up with knowledge and let's do this. And then and then but everything is modeled and it's just like, well, let's get a group of twenty five and let's teach them all how to do this. And it's one talking head.

And then we have cursory discussion for 15 minutes and we go, Wow, okay, we got it. Versus how about you experiment with maybe a a couple of guys and model something that can be reproduced? So even in me taking care of executives, Andrew, I people began to see and they asked me, Do you have time for you? And say, you we're we're gonna get to that. Or

John Honold (45:10.98)

You know, I'm meeting with Stan, but you can meet with Stan. And and so from the beginning, instead of being available to everybody, I was selectively involved and I pressed it down. So now I have mini church pastors. I've I've got mini ch mini church head coach. I've got all these things in place, and they don't have my specific workings into what's going on. We're less than three months from launch.

We're only now starting our interest meetings. And I'm very confident that when we start on September twentieth this fall, and by the time I get the Think Next in October, I'll tell you what's going on. Either it's totally Jesus or you know what? my gosh, can you give me a job? Because I don't know what I'm I'm a living example of and I'll be able to talk to you about did all this work. but in Christ I it's gonna work. I I'm excited. But

Andrew Estes (45:55.667)

Ha ha ha.

Tom (45:56.751)

Mm-hmm.

John Honold (46:08.208)

Go ahead. Yeah.

Andrew Estes (46:09.963)

Yeah, I had a just a kind of a question for both of you guys, you know, especially as you're as you're moving towards launch, John. But Tom, let's start with you. What is your cause we talk a lot about the the life on life, and and I'm assuming that that's the in opposed to what John just kind of described in a classroom type of setting or opposed to just assuming that it's happening on Sunday mornings from the stage or things of that of just being able to be in more intimate settings.

John Honold (46:28.462)

Yeah, yeah.

Andrew Estes (46:37.121)

together being able to do to to to share application, to share you know, holding one another accountable, to be able to be you know, confessing and and all all of the things that kind of goes into that. Tom, what is your kind of preferred vehicle or or preferred size of group that this kind of happens on? Is it typically in a one-to-one? Is it kind of that LTG or the the life transformation group from Neil Cole where it's like three or four people

Or 'cause John, I know that you've done kind of the small family kind of feel where the the whole life group together and, you know, ten to fifteen or however many people that you feel like that can be done and multiplied there. Maybe that was Ralph Moore's model, but would love for you both of you guys to speak with that. But Tom, what what is it for you that you typically find yourself moving into in disciple making conversations and relationships?

Tom (47:29.367)

That's a good question. Most of mine have been one on one or one on few, just because partly because of how I'm wired, but also because of the need to go deep. and the larger the group, of course, the less likely that is that people are going to be authentic enough to go deep in their lives. but I've accidentally started house churches even when I was pastoring a traditional church.

I had a house church growing. I go, my gosh, what happened? but if you get past twelve or fifteen, I think Jesus may have known something about the size, you know, that you could effectively really deeply disciple. so my preferred size is that. The other thing I've learned is is adjust your how you do things, your training based on the group. There is a place, and I wrote about it in the book, for large group.

But you're not trying to train them or disciple them. You're you can teach them, you can drop some principles, but really what you're trying to do is create curiosity and a desire to draw closer to a God who then you're gonna have to journey with a few in order to do it. So I'll stop there and let John

John Honold (48:26.138)

Yes.

John Honold (48:46.81)

So just building on that, I think Andrew, two things that when I talk to the folks at Hope Chapels, I'll first I'll start in the context of the church that I'm about to plan. I I tell people that on Sunday you learn the Bible in church. You learn it. It's my privilege or whoever the teaching pastor is that day is to bring it. You know, to to what does the scripture say? What does it mean? You know, do the exegesis, you know, it's just like bring the heart, you know, what is that that heart thing? When I was reading the word and studying, this is one thing that grabbed me and then

as a teacher say this is what I feel like God wants me to do. So I'm I'm teaching, but I'm also modeling head to heart to hands. So you learn the Bible in church. And I tell people you live the Bible in mini church. So mini church is less the small group is less about the empirical exercise between the ears. I want to do that because I don't want to just be all feeling I feel this and I that because it's got to be rooted in the truth because the truth sets us free.

The truth, the light shines in the darkness, doesn't overwhelm. So, like Tom said, when you're doing small groups, you're not poo-pooing the gospel. You're you it's that's the foundation. He is the word, and the word is the word. So that's always there. So you our groups to get together and say, Hey, let's go over the message for a few minutes. But really, it's about okay, let's I wanna get to that. What was that heart grab? What was that one moment? And then what do you want to do about it? So

if I have a group like we've how did we go from one to five mini churches at Hope Chapel in the last year? Well, we started in a house with one group. And as the group began to grow at pushing the eight and nine, then right away I can do a group discussion with nine or I can do one room with four and one with five. You got a dining room table, you got a living room. So we begin the model subdividing right in the small groups on the start.

And and so right away that means that when I'm starting a group, I've got to have somebody to take the other four. So that's what we've modeled. And as we've done that, and then as we grow in the house, it's just a matter of convenience and parking. But I let know from the get-go that, you know, we're not going to be like this. Now, there I have a core group of people in our church that they refuse to kind of, and I say this in love.

John Honold (51:02.532)

They refuse to, you know, we're building, we're deep, and everything else. And so when you do a small group start to multiply, you're gonna have one or two that it's just like they're not gonna do it. And just, you know what? praise the name of Jesus. Okay, just they're there. But and but I'm really excited about the groups that that want to multiply. So we've gone in the last year, we've gone one to five, just in that model. We started in a house as we outgrew a house.

Hey, why don't can one of you host at your house? And that's what we've done. I have two also additionally online groups for people that it's just like, I don't want to drive at night, or I work a bunch and it's hard. So we're doing a both and, but what I don't compromise on, Andrew, is what does the Bible say? Break it down. What does it mean to me and what are you gonna do? then the groups, as busy as they are, I say don't bow to busyness.

Because if you find ways to cancel your small group, then pretty soon it falls out of somebody's top ten. And and be consistent, be intentional, and be relational. So that's what I love about small groups, that it's just like it's be you know, get them going, find ways to subdivide within a house. and then here's a second picture I told you about. Even in my coaching, I'd rather coach in groups than in then I

Because of my job, I need to do some one-on-one. But ideally, I like to do things in groups, you know, two or three people at at once. When I in my church, when I'm doing meetings, and they say, you can have one-on-one time, I I say, not really. I I meet with teams of people, teams of leaders or teams of groups. So I like to model that we we do things with more than just a one-on-one. That's just my personal bias when I lead.

Andrew Estes (52:53.761)

Yeah, yeah. Love that. I just think as we kind of kind of wrap our time, one of the things that really stood out to me in the book was actually from Pastor Fumi's chapter on making disciples like Jesus in Japan. And he one of the things that I loved about that, and I'm always kind of aware of these phrases now, because he says something to the effect of there's there's a strong claim that the the stories we tell.

determine the discipl the kind of disciples we make. And, you know, just in again, kind of complimenting what what Phil says in his the the discipleship gospel chapter as well as he's quoting Bill Hull, where Bill, you know, says in conversion and discipleship that the the gospel we preach determines the disciples we make. And so there's so many different things that just kind of play into that. But the the storytelling was seen was something that that just kind of

Not necessarily caught me off guard because I know that the the the celebration and the the sharing of stories, the testimony, all of these things are highly important. But it's something that I don't think it's brought up a whole lot. And and I'd love for you guys to or maybe one of you, maybe Tom, share just a little bit about what what is the importance of the consistency in storytelling.

Tom (54:10.627)

That's a great question. And that was one of the things that stood out with Fumi for me too. It was wow. Jesus used stories. Our culture is even in all our digital mania, it's stories that capture people's hearts and it's stories that remember they remember. So I can't remember the exact percentage, but something like sixty percent or more of the Bible is story.

So what if we were intentional about that? What if we instead of being a transfer of information? Life on life by its very nature requires us to be storytellers and story hearers and and people who respond to stories. And I'll stop there, but yeah, you're on to something very important that and you can feel the shift in a room in a small group if you're leading a small group.

if someone starts to tell their story and you've created an environment where that's honored and valued. but I could go on forever there, so I'll stop.

John Honold (55:18.34)

I'll just add to that Revelations twelve eleven says they defeated the devil by the the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony, and they weren't afraid unto death. And I think that in all of the folks that we enjoyed, you know, Hawaiian the Hawaiian history Ken told us is is an oral tradition. It's not there's not a lot of written, so it's all about the passing on of stories. Fumi, when I got to as I've worked with them now and and

Tom (55:36.644)

Mm-hmm.

John Honold (55:45.623)

And and really beginning in this stage, the last eight years of coaching and mentoring him and his wife that and going to the church, you know, he he's told me, he goes, John, don't forget to tell stories. And even then he coaches me on my American metaphors, you know, think about it this way. And you know, and so I've just really received because he's a brilliant man who wants his people to grow in the Lord. So he coaches me up on how to speak to Japanese folks. I'm still John Honold

But I'm I'm learning the language, okay, how w of my of my the folks that are here in Japan. So I don't come in as this Westerner trying to push Western stuff. It's like, no, it's it's the gospel of Jesus Christ. And I want to reach Japanese to the Jew, I'm like a Jew, to a Greek, I'm like a Greek. I become all things to all people in order to save a few. But stories are

Andrew Estes (56:35.841)

Yeah, yeah. That's fantastic. Well, guys, I'm so so grateful for your time and just some of the insights from the book. And I just as we as we close, want to ask one kind of key insight. Maybe it's something that you've said already, but if you were to you know, we're mo the majority of our audience are church planters or people on staff at churches, maybe volunteers and church plants. And as you as you think through just your experience, whether it's

more recent in the symposium and the book, or just what you know of disciple making, what you've learned about intimacy with the Father. What is what is one key takeaway, one bit of advice that you would give anybody that may come across this podcast as it relates to their their relationship with the Lord and making disciples?

Tom (57:24.707)

John. You wanna

John Honold (57:25.818)

Okay, well I I think that I think that the idea is is that when you when you see the writers talk they always refer to they're not embarrassed about saying you you know my way of life. You know how I lived among you. And and I think that the privilege of making disciples is to be a disciple. And you know, the steadfast love of the Lord never ceases, his mercies never come to an end. They are new every morning. Great is your faithfulness.

I want to be someone in order to make disciples, I wanna I wanna experience the newness and goodness of God with fresh revelation every single day. And so if if if I bring it in my quiet time and I have intimacy with Abba, then it's gonna have a radical effect on how I live and speak into the life of someone else.

Tom (58:17.923)

And I would I one of the things that was as much bias as I have towards intimacy with God was when I started writing this particular chapter for this particular book, was the discovery of how much Jesus' mission really was to get to know God as Father. And so for me, make the one thing the one thing stands out.

Andrew Estes (58:18.317)

Yeah, it's green.

Tom (58:46.465)

Jesus modeled it. He had an amazing, ongoing visible relationship with the Father, and he taught a lot about the Father. And so and Paul it was the core of Paul's life. One thing I do, he presses on. What is he pressing on towards? The high calling. What's the high calling to know Christ and the fellowship of his or the power you know, to know Christ and his power and the fellowship of his sufferings? so

John Honold (59:08.228)

Amen.

Tom (59:15.819)

What if that's the core of everything? And what if we don't do it just alone? Yes, solitude, but not isolation. What if we do it together? So pursue the God. one of my one liners, I have a thousand of If if you know God really well, you still have all of God get to know, yet to get to know. He's infinite. So how far can you explore the goodness of God?

Andrew Estes (59:44.683)

Yeah, yeah, that's good. Well guys, I'm so so grateful for this work, grateful for John, just your friendship, grateful to to get to meet you, Tom, and just to dialogue around some of this type of stuff. And maybe we'll do this again when the next version, the next volume comes out.

Tom (59:45.327)

I'll stop.

Tom (01:00:00.247)

There you go.

John Honold (01:00:01.2)

Pray that we can finish herding the cats and get the book published in the

Tom (01:00:03.951)

Amen. Amen to that.

Andrew Estes (01:00:06.507)

That's right. So grateful for you guys. Thank you so much for your time.

Tom (01:00:09.935)

Okay, good to meet you, Andrew.

John Honold (01:00:11.524)

Aloha Andrew and thank you. Always Tom, always good being with you.