18 Matthew Efird | Practical Support for Grieving Families

Andrew Estes (00:00.128)

Awesome. Well, Matthew, so excited to have you on the podcast. I am just grateful having having just recently get to know you to to read some of your story and your book and just grateful for an opportunity to share some of the tools, the resources and opportunities that you have for pastors and leaders to navigate some of the hard things that you've gone through that we'll dive into here in a little bit. So Andrew man, I appreciate the opportunity. Thank you for the chance to to share.

Matthew Efird (00:24.175)

Sure. Andrew man, I appreciate the opportunity. Thank you for the chance to to share.

Andrew Estes (00:29.514)

Awesome. Well, guys, I I first met Matthew actually through my wife, who actually hosted Matthew on on her podcast. And Matthew has an incredible story and of of just grace and the things that God has brought them through. But we are going to be diving into some sensitive topics today. But specifically in ministry, one of the hardest things to do is being able to to walk alongside people who are just going through unimaginable.

Grief and pain and and difficulties in a number of different ways. And in particular with Matthew's story, we're gonna we're gonna walk through just some of his navigating of of what it was like to lose a child and just probably no more greater pain than and some of what that looks like. But Matthew, I'm so grateful for the introduction to you, was grateful for just some of the tools and resources that kind of came out of your your book.

that you had shared with me and really look forward to just diving into your story today. But before we get into any of that, I would just love for you to introduce yourself more fully to our audience, to somebody who may not know who you are, your family. Sure. Matthew E for

Matthew Efird (01:36.805)

Sure. Matthew Eford, unapologetically a follower of Jesus Christ. outside of my relationship with Jesus, the best decision I ever made was marrying my high school sweetheart. my wife Hannah and I have four boys, an eight-year-old, would-be six-year-old, five-year-old, and three year old. I have three businesses that I manage. And I was a bi vocational pastor for a decade in college and a little bit out of college, and served in that role, loved to to serve in that role.

Andrew Estes (01:40.876)

Jesus Christ. And then outside my relationship with Jesus, best decision I ever made was marrying my high school sweetheart.

Andrew Estes (01:49.356)

An eight-year-old, would be six-year-old, five-year-old, and three-year-old. I have three businesses that I manage. And I was a bi-vocational pastor for a decade in college and a little bit out of college. And served in that role, loved to serve in that role. Felt called to step out of vocational ministry for a period of time as our families growing, as our businesses were growing. And

Matthew Efird (02:06.926)

felt called to step out of vocational ministry for a period of time as our family was growing, as our businesses were growing. And earlier this year and the time of this recording, I wrote a book and I wrote about our second son Noah. again, he would have been six at the time of this recording. He we learned of his diagnosis in September of twenty nineteen that he was sick.

Andrew Estes (02:15.927)

Earlier this year in the time of this recording, wrote a book and I wrote about our second son Noah. again, he would have been six at the time of this recording. He we learned of his diagnosis in September of twenty nineteen that he was sick. And he was we it was our twelve week ultrasound appointment and he was diagnosed with Patell syndrome.

Matthew Efird (02:33.824)

And he was we it was our 12 week ultrasound appointment and he was diagnosed with Patel syndrome, which is trisomy thirteen. It's akin to Down syndrome. it's a extra thirteenth chromosome, and it is a lethal diagnosis. And so we spent the next six and a half months grieving a diagnosis before.

Andrew Estes (02:42.078)

Which is trisomy thirteen. It's akin to Down syndrome. It's a extra thirteenth chromosome. And it is a lethal diagnosis. And so we spent the next six and a half months grieving a diagnosis before our son was ever born. It's kind of what we consider anticipatory grief. So we're grieving his diagnosis while he's still here. He's growing

Matthew Efird (02:59.808)

our son was ever born, right? It's kind of what we consider anticipatory grief. So we're grieving his diagnosis while he's still here. He's growing. and then he was born March seventh of twenty twenty. And he passed fifty seven and a half later hours later on March 9th of twenty twenty.

Andrew Estes (03:10.246)

and he was born March seventh of twenty twenty and he passed fifty-seven and a half later hours later on March 9th of 2020. Wow man, yeah, I can't even imagine some of that. We'll we'll kind of continue to to unpack some of that stuff. But being able to I know that you you do a little a little bit of either either coaching or training specifically for for pastors and leaders and just how to navigate some of the

the grief process and we'll we'll dive into that a little bit a little bit later. But I would love to just, man, just kinda unpack a little bit more of your story as you are, you know, kind of getting that awful news that I remember just reading in your book as you're as you're talking and calling funeral homes of planning the death of your son who's about to be born. And it was just just some of the weight of of what that looks like. I've

Matthew Efird (03:57.124)

Yeah.

Andrew Estes (04:03.579)

Yeah, I just couldn't couldn't even imagine and put myself in your shoes of just losing losing a child and having that that that terminal type of a diagnosis even before the kid's born. What take us back to just kind of that season in your in your life from ultrasound moving forward. Yeah, so we went into our ultrasound point just like everything was normal, right? we're we're in our mid twenties at this time, our late twenties, I guess.

Matthew Efird (04:21.506)

Yeah, so we went into our ultrasound appointment just like everything was normal, right? we're we're in our mid twenties at this time or late twenties, I guess. And we have an eighteen month old at home, our friend group, you know, went to the University of Georgia, Go Dogs, by the way, and had a great s campus ministry group that we were a part of there, had a great church that we were a part of that I s are served out on staff.

Andrew Estes (04:33.556)

And we have an eighteen month

group, you know, went to the University of Georgia, go dogs, by the way, and had a great s campus ministry group that we were a part of there. Had a great church that we were part of that I served out on staff. Had this incredible community of of a couple hundred people really at the end of the day it's a couple hundred people that we were were friends with. Not super close with all of them, but friends.

Matthew Efird (04:50.84)

Had this incredible community of a couple hundred people really at the end of the day, is a couple hundred people that we were were friends with. Not super close with all of them, but were friends. Seems like everybody kind of married, you know, you met somebody at college and married, and and it was we were tons of weddings early in our marriage that we were in and going to was a very fun season of life. But we looked around, we went into that doctor's appointment and

Andrew Estes (05:03.313)

Seems like everybody kind of married, you know, you met somebody at college and married and and it was we were tons of weddings early in our marriage that we were in and going to is a very fun season life. We looked around

We went into that dark appointment and the only thing that I was praying for and new to even think of was I just want to see a heartbeat. Right? We had seen a heartbeat six weeks earlier, five weeks earlier at our previous appointment. We were very excited. So we brought our 18-month-old along with us because it was like, hey, you get this D baby brother, baby sister at that time we didn't know. You can see them on screen. Like, how cool is that? And

Matthew Efird (05:21.12)

Only thing that I was praying for and knew to even think of was I just want to see a heartbeat. Right. We had seen a heartbeat six weeks earlier, five weeks earlier at our previous appointment. We were very excited. So we brought our 18-month-old along with us because it was like, hey, you get to see baby brother, baby sister at that time we didn't know. You get to see them on screen. Like, how cool is that? And our ultrasound technician started doing the exam.

Andrew Estes (05:47.954)

Our ultrasound technician started doing the exam. He has heartbeat, it's a strong heartbeat. Praise the Lord. And she starts measuring the back part of his neck. And she's measuring it over and over and over again. And looking back now, we notice that. But in the moment it's we're just excited. Our eighteen months old's getting a little sort of crazy. He's tired of being in that little room. He was it was fun to see the pictures and then it's it's too abstract for it. So

Matthew Efird (05:50.841)

He has a heartbeat, it's a strong heartbeat, like, praise the Lord. And she starts measuring the back part of his neck and she's measuring it over and over and over again. And looking back now, we notice that. But in the moment it's we're just excited. Our eighteen months old's getting a little stir crazy. He's tired of being in that little room. He was it was fun to see the pictures and then it was it's too abstract for him. So he's wanting to climb on me, he's wanting to climb on Hannah. It's just kind of chaotic. Anybody who's got young kids, they they remember.

Andrew Estes (06:15.401)

He's wanting to climb on me, he's on the climb on Hannah it's just kind of chaotic. Anybody who's got young kids they remember. So we go into the waiting room and you know that little waiting room that many of your audience or the folks in your church, they've sat in that waiting room and they've been getting a diagnosis that they were not expecting. And it's crushing. It's confusing. it throws you in a tailspin.

Matthew Efird (06:21.612)

So we go into the waiting room and you know, that little waiting room that many of your audience or the folks in your church, they've sat in that waiting room and they've been giving a diagnosis that they were not expecting. And it's crushing. It's confusing. it's throws you in a tailspin, you know, our our doctor walked in and she said, Matthew and Hannah, those some abnormalities on your ultrasound.

Andrew Estes (06:45.315)

You know, our our doctor walked in and she said, Man, can Hannah know some abnormalities on your ultrasound? And Andrew, I I didn't hear a lot after that. She talked about trustomy diagnosis. the the thickness of the neck, the thing that our ultrasound technician kept measuring is when it's outside of a certain range, like if it's too thick, it's

Matthew Efird (06:51.88)

And Andrew, I I didn't hear a lot after that. She talked about trisomy diagnosis. the the thickness of the neck, the thing that our ultrasound technician kept measuring is when it's outside of a certain range, like if it's too thick, it's a very, very telltale sign of like, hey, this is what's going on. And so we got genetic testing. We waited about 10 days to get the response back from that. Normally it takes several weeks. They rushed it.

Andrew Estes (07:08.65)

a very, very telltale sign of like, hey, this is what's going on. And so we got genetic testing. We waited about ten days to get the response back from that. It only takes several weeks. They rushed it. We got it back. It was seven or ten days later. Our our doctor called us. And I and Walker were standing out the back porch. And she said, Yes, you your son has tristomy thirteen.

Matthew Efird (07:19.736)

We got it back. It was seven or ten days later. Our our doctor called us. Hannah and I and Walker were standing out on the back porch. And she said, Yes, you your son has trisomy thirteen. And it's a complete diagnosis, meaning it's impacting every cell in his body. It's not a partial, it's not going to be isolated to one part of his system. So we started meeting with specialists. We started meeting with doctors. It was felt like we were going once or twice a week throughout the pregnancy. We wanted to make sure that.

Andrew Estes (07:29.91)

And it's a complete diagnosis, meaning it's impacting every cell in his body. It's not a partial, it's not gonna be isolated to one part of his system. So we started meeting with specialists, we started meeting with doctors, it was felt like we were going once or twice a week throughout the pregnancy. We wanna make sure that he was okay, we had to make sure the handle was okay. a normal thing that happens in a tristomy diagnosis, either thirteen or eighteen, those are the two that are most common, is

Matthew Efird (07:47.523)

He was okay. We had to make sure that Hannah was okay. a normal thing that happens in a trisomy diagnosis, either 13 or 18, those are the two that are most common, is there it's a stillbirth. And so there's a lot of care that has to be provided for mom to make sure that that her health is is protected as well. So went through the process. Noel was very active.

Andrew Estes (07:59.843)

There it's a still birth. And so there's a lot of care that has to be provided for mom to make sure that that her health is is protected as well. So went through the process. Noel was very active and moved a lot, so it was a huge blessing. but in a in that season that

Matthew Efird (08:15.36)

And moved a lot, so it was a huge blessing. but man, I in that season, that six and a half month season, there was this this kind of fog. We entered in a little bit of the fog of grief that I write about and talk about. And and it became like little things became somewhat overwhelming. So the day-to-day functionality of

Andrew Estes (08:22.483)

six and a half month season, there was this this kind of fog. We entered in a little bit of the fog of grief that I write about and talk about. And and it became like little things became somewhat overwhelming. So the day to day functionality managing an eighteen month to two year old at home became a big deal. Like

Matthew Efird (08:43.412)

managing an eighteen month to two year old at home became a big deal. Like trying to I'm God's design me as a visionary. So I'd I'd provide that role in my organizations. I love to do that. And this season of my life, I I did not have that. Looking forward months, years down the road, decades down the road, I I could not at all. There w there was none of that. It was it was a lot of, hey, I I've

Andrew Estes (08:50.146)

trying to I'm God's design me as a visionary. So I I provide that role in my organizations. I love to do that. And this season of my life, I I did not have that money. Looking forward months, years down the road, decades down the road, I I could not at all. There was there was none of that. It was it was a lot of, hey I I've I've got to get my feet on the floor and get out of bed today. And like a shower today's gonna be a win. Go into the office and

Matthew Efird (09:10.7)

I've got to get my feet on the floor and get out of bed today. And like a shower today is going to be a win. Going to the office and collecting some checks at the office is going to be a win. Like being on a 30 minute staff call is going to be a win today. And that's going to be kind of it. So it's a lot of re evaluating myself. Like, you know, I I'm a pastor and

Andrew Estes (09:19.307)

collecting some checks at altas is gonna be a win. Like being on a 30 minute staff call is gonna be a win today. And that's gonna be kind of it. So it's a lot of reevaluating myself like you know, I I'm a pastor and I'm leading helping lead in a an a congregation. so I'm serving as an associate pastor at this time. Okay. And I've said from stage

Matthew Efird (09:37.309)

leading, helping lead in in a congregation. so I'm serving as an associate pastor at this time. And I've said from stage maybe hundreds of times at this point in my time speaking at at conferences and events and and and small groups and and from stage and said it's okay to not be okay, but it's not okay to stay there. And I still believe that.

Andrew Estes (09:48.481)

Maybe hundreds of times at this point in my time speaking at conferences and events and and in small groups and from stage and said it's okay to not be okay, but it's not okay to stay there. And I still believe that. But I'd never, Andrew, I'd never in my life been not okay until this happened. And I found myself like, okay, this is what it means to not.

Matthew Efird (10:06.606)

But I'd never, Andrew, I'd never in my life been not okay until this happened. And I found myself like, okay, this is what it means to not be okay. This is what it means to be broken. This is what it means to to to suffer. This is what it means to grieve. This is what it means to have your life turned upside down. You know, I I Hannah had when we were at that doctor's appointment and on

Andrew Estes (10:16.426)

Be okay. This is what it means to be broken. This is what it means to to to suffer. This is what it means to greenheat. This is what it means to have your life turned upside down. You know, I I Hannah had when we were at that doctor's appointment and only in September when we heard that abnormalities, she had to get some genetic testing. And I remember.

Matthew Efird (10:36.214)

In September, when we heard that abnormalities word, she had to get some genetic testing. And I remember picking Walker up and, you know, 18 month old, right? Super fun for them to walk and run, like all the fun newness of life as a parent and as a little kid. But in that moment, I was like, nah, you you're not gonna walk across this parking lot. Like I'm I'm gonna carry you. I'm gonna pick you up. I'm gonna carry you and I'm gonna put you in the truck and I'm gonna get you buckled up. And I did, and I sat in the front.

Andrew Estes (10:43.963)

picking Walker up and you know, eighteen month old, right? Super fun for them to walk and run, like all the fun newness of life as a parent and as a little kid. But in that moment I was like, nah, you you're not gonna walk across this parking lot. I'm I'm gonna carry and we'll pick you up. We'll carry you and I'm gonna put you in the truck and I'm gonna get you buckled up. And I did and I sat in the front and I put my head on my steering wheel and I just wept. And it was something breaking deep

Matthew Efird (11:05.876)

And I put my head on my steering wheel and I just wept. And it was something breaking deep, deep within me of I am I am fully broken here. And there's emotions as a man, like I don't speak for every man by any standpoint, but I can speak for myself. There were emotions in me that I felt that I'd never knew I could feel, right?

Andrew Estes (11:12.393)

deep within me of I am I am fully broken here. And there's emotions as a man, like I don't speak for every man by any sample. I can speak for myself. There were emotions in me that I felt that I never knew I could feel. Right. And there was a fear that came to me in this moment of, you know, this is we're 12 weeks into this pregnancy.

Matthew Efird (11:33.133)

And there was a fear that came to me in this moment of, you know, this is we're 12 weeks into this pregnancy. And he's not here. And I've not had to experience the loss of him yet. And it's already hurting this bad. Like I I am in trouble. I I still remember thinking that. I I am I am in trouble. And we went home.

Andrew Estes (11:42.259)

and he's not here and I've not had to experience the loss of him yet. And it's already hurt me this bad. Like I I'm in trouble. I I still remember thinking that. I I am I'm in trouble. And we went home, we had some friends, you know, some our our community group, just our our family, some some distant friends that live outside of the area that we were living at the time.

Matthew Efird (12:00.78)

We had some friends, you know, some our our community group, just our our family, some some distant friends that lived outside of the area that we were living at the time that knew that we were pregnant and knew that we're going in for an appointment. And that evening I went outside on that same back porch and started making phone calls. And that was one of my first big mistakes that I made was I tried to be the point person to communicate out to everybody in my life.

Andrew Estes (12:10.993)

that knew that we were pregnant and knew that we're going in for an appointment. And that evening I went outside on that same back porch and started making phone calls. And that was one of my first big mistakes that I made was I tried to be the point person to communicate out to everybody in my life. And that was that was not a good role for me. Came back in an hour and a half later and told Hannah I I can never do that again. That was

Matthew Efird (12:30.54)

And that was that was not a good role for me. Came back in an hour and a half later and told Hannah I I can never do that again. That was that was way too much for me to relive this diagnosis that we've just received. It's way too raw. I have not processed this at all. How can I then communicate this out to everyone? that that was a a huge mistake. but what I learned early on.

Andrew Estes (12:39.557)

That was way too much for me to relive this diagnosis that we've just received. It's way too raw. I have not processed this at all. How can I then communicate this out to everyone? that that was a a huge mistake. but what I've learned early on is I had to figure out how to process things that were going on inside of me.

Matthew Efird (13:00.88)

is I had to figure out how to process the things that were going on inside of me, right? The thoughts, the fears, the frustrations, the concerns, the confusion. In a way that I did that is I moved and I wrote. And I would encourage anybody in a season of grief to find ways that you can get things out of your head and and get them out.

Andrew Estes (13:07.548)

Right. The thoughts, the fears, the frustrations, the concerns, the confusion in a way that I did then is I moved and I wrote. And I would encourage anybody in the season of grief to find ways that you can get things out of your head.

And and get them out. If that's communicating with a friend, if that's a counselor, if that's your pastor, if that's providing that listening ear of somebody in that scenario. But really it was for me trying to articulate out what I was feeling. And those journalings that I did.

Matthew Efird (13:28.118)

If that's communicating with a friend, if that's a counselor, if that's your pastor, if that's providing that listening ear to somebody in that scenario. But really it was for me trying to articulate out what I was feeling. And those journalings that I did throughout the pregnancy, our time in the hospital after Noah passed, his memorial service, you know, the months and years afterwards, they became the foundation of the book, the or my book, even though we will.

Andrew Estes (13:45.267)

Throughout the pregnancy, our time in the hospital after Noah passed, his memorial service, you know, the months and years afterwards. They became the foundation of the book, the or my book, even though we will. It became the foundation of that to try to share and insert into this is something again. I don't speak everybody, but this is something that I wish I would have had.

Matthew Efird (13:58.059)

It became the foundation of that to try to share an insert into this is something again, don't speak for everybody, but this is something that I wish I would have had as a pastor. I wish I would have had this resource to know when somebody in the congregation was going through something. How could give me a glimpse into that? Because we looked across our friend group, right? We had this.

Andrew Estes (14:11.415)

As a pastor, I wish I would have had this resource to know when somebody in a congregation was going through something. How could give me a glimpse into that? Because we looked across our friend group, right? We had this amazing friend group, amazing church community. No one had experienced this that we knew of. Nobody had experienced child loss. We had a distant, distant friend.

Matthew Efird (14:26.006)

Amazing friend group, amazing church community. No one had experienced this that we knew of. Nobody had experienced child loss. We had a distant, distant friend that had had an early miscarriage, but no one had walked through this type of journey. There was not a lot of biblical truth out there around child loss at the time. You know, this is twenty nineteen. There's a lot more resources now, thankfully. There was no playbook.

Andrew Estes (14:36.16)

It had had an early miscarriage, but no one had walked through this type of trick journey. There was not a lot of biblical truth out there around child loss at the time. This is twenty nineteen. It's a lot more resources now, thankfully. There was no playbook. There was no advice.

Matthew Efird (14:55.352)

There was no advice. There was no advice for our community of things to say and not to say, of how they could show up for our family. There was no advice for me as a dad. Like, hey, these are some of the journeys that you're going to walk along. Here's some of the things that your bride is going to walk along. Here's the way you need to be attentive and show up for her. And so that was really the foundation for the book is to share like, here's what I wish I would have known along the way.

Andrew Estes (14:57.23)

There was no advice for our community of things to say and not to say, of how they could show up for our family. There was no advice for me as a dad. Like, hey, these are some of the journeys that you're gonna walk along. Here's some of the things that your bride is gonna walk along. Here's the way you need to be attentive and show up for her. And so that was really the foundation for the book is to share like

Here's what I wish I would have known the way. Here's how our family navigated that. So, you know, our name's Noah. And we play off of his story in the Bible a lot. You know, the biblical story of Noah is just an amazing story. And one of the things that I love about the heart is it carried Noah's family through the storm. It did not remove the storm. And so in the book, every chapter ends in an arc. And it's just a hey, here's an anchor.

Matthew Efird (15:24.792)

Here's how our family navigated that. So, you know, our son's name's Noah, and we play off of his story in the Bible a lot. You know, the biblical story of Noah and the Ark's is an amazing story. And one of the things that I love about the Ark is it carried Noah's family through the storm. It did not remove the storm. And so in the book, every chapter ends in an arc, and it's just a hey, here's an anchor, here's a life raft that I needed in this part of the season.

Andrew Estes (15:50.611)

here's a life rap that I needed in this part of the season that really helped me along the way. Right. So that that's kind of yeah where where the the came from. Yeah, I love and and even in in the naming of your son, like you kind of pulled pulled that out as a as a pretty significant thing. And I I I kind of resonated with that just because I've done done some training with people on just even rediscovering the purpose and the meaning of their name.

Matthew Efird (15:54.329)

that really helped me along the way. so that that's kind of where where the the book came from.

Matthew Efird (16:17.465)

Yeah.

Andrew Estes (16:17.708)

And that's such a significant thing biblically of whether you're whether whether people need a name change from like a Paul to a Saul or Jacob to Israel, things of that nature, or or just to be able to be called to live up to our name, right? Like a Gideon type of a person where, you know, just the angel shows up and says, you know, you're you're a mighty man, my mighty man of valor, right? And then just the name of the meaning of his name, and he doesn't feel like that at the time, but

I I love the be the the significance of the meaning of the name that you guys had kind of chosen and and I think that you said in your story that after that ultrasound maybe of when things were were kind of coming to a screeching halt and being able to move forward in this brand new season, you guys very quickly decided to name your child. tell me tell me a little bit about that and then 'cause that plays into the obviously Noah and the Ark and and just kind of everything carrying you forward from there, but what was that like?

Matthew Efird (17:12.684)

Yeah, it's a great question. So two things happened really early on. we you know I I had looked at I'd had it sounds silly in retrospect, but in in my college years, there was an organization that I had served in in a campus ministry role, and I wanted to serve a as the president and

Andrew Estes (17:13.172)

Yeah, that's a great question. So two things happen.

We you know I I had looked at

Andrew Estes (17:24.48)

It sounds silly in retrospect, but in in my college years, there was an organization that I had served in in the campus ministry movie. And I wanted to serve at as the president. And the board had picked somebody else to be president. And that was a big deal for me at that time. And it was a big like suffering moment of my God, why would you take Disney from me?

Matthew Efird (17:42.319)

The board had picked somebody else to be president. And that was a big deal for me at that time. And it was a big like suffering moment of like, God, why would you take this away from me? I've been group, like prepared for this role for a few years now. And I've got this vision that I think you would have for this organization. And so I remember going out and like flipping through my Bible and like, where, where can I read about suffering? You know, this is 21 year old Matthew, you know.

Andrew Estes (17:53.429)

I've been grouped like prepared for this role for a few years now. And I've got this vision that I think you would have for this organization. And so I remember going out and like flipping through my Bible and like where where can I read about suffering? You know, this is 21-year-old Matthew, you know, being melodramatic. And and I came across Joke and I was like, That's a good story about suffering. I'm gonna read Joke. Man, I read through Job and I got to chapter 38.

Matthew Efird (18:12.002)

being melodramatic and and I came across Job and I was like, that's a good story about suffering. I'm gonna read Job. Man, I read through Job and I got to chapter thirty eight. And it was where God answers Job and and his questioning. And it's a clarification of where were you where I created the foundation of the world, where were you when I told the oceans where to stop and the mountains were to rise. And I just kind of accepted like, okay, God.

Andrew Estes (18:23.165)

And it was where God answers Joe and and his questioning. And it's a clarification of where were you where I created the foundation of the world? Or were you when I told the oceans where to stop and the mountains where to rise? And I just kind of accepted, like, okay, God, like, wow. You were God and I am none. And so I didn't realize that eight, nine years later.

Matthew Efird (18:42.188)

Like, wow. You are God and I am not. And so I didn't realize that eight, nine years later, I'm gonna be revisiting that passage and and revisiting that as the faith of Job to say, even though you slay me, yet will I praise you. Cause I remember reading that in my early twenties and thinking, What incredible faith. Like what what incredible faith that he would have.

Andrew Estes (18:50.984)

I'm gonna be revisiting that passage and and revisiting that as the faith of Job to say, even though you slay me, yet will I praise you. Because I remember reading that in my early 20s and thinking, what incredible faith. Like what what incredible faith that he would have to declare that over himself. And I thought, I hope that I.

Matthew Efird (19:11.812)

To declare that over himself. And I thought, I hope that I I will have faith that would stand that test. And so when we were in the waiting period between the first ultrasound appointment that we learned that he was sick, to when we got the genetic testing, that kind of 10 day period. We said our family mantra.

Andrew Estes (19:18.395)

I will have faith that would stand that test. And so when we were in the waiting period between the first ultrasound appointment that we learned that he was sick to when we got the genetic testing, that kind of 10-day period, we said

Our family's mantra, the words that we're gonna speak over ourselves, is even if we will. So even if this is what God allows to happen on our son, we will continue to praise him. And he is God and I am not. And his ways are higher than my ways, and his thoughts are higher than my thoughts. And even when we didn't really know what it meant, we just said, This is the truth, and truth matters.

Matthew Efird (19:40.863)

The words that we are going to speak over ourselves is even if we will. So even if this is what God allows to happen on our son, we will continue to praise him that he is God and I am not. And his ways are higher than my ways and his thoughts are higher than my thoughts. And even when we didn't really know what it meant, we just said this is the truth, and truth matters, and what we speak over ourselves matters.

Andrew Estes (20:07.472)

And what we speak over ourselves matters. So we said, we're gonna say this over ourselves, over and over and over again. This is gonna be our family mantra in this. When we learned of his diagnosis, we said, okay, it's now even though it's no longer if.

Matthew Efird (20:10.104)

So we said, we're we're gonna we're gonna say this over ourselves over and over and over again. This is gonna be our family mantra during this. When we learned of his diagnosis, we said, okay, it's now even though it's no longer if that this is this has become a fact, that this is the diagnosis that we have. And we're gonna pray for healing. We're gonna pray thousands of times between September and March.

Andrew Estes (20:30.074)

That this is the diagnosis that we have. And we're gonna pray for healing. We're gonna pray thousands of times between September and March for my son to be healed. There will be thousands of people praying for him. And in the network that got out, the word got out to some amazing organizations.

Matthew Efird (20:39.598)

For my son to be healed. There will be thousands of people praying for him. And in the network that got out, the word got out to some amazing organizations. And there were people all around the world praying for our son, which is unbelievable. And we made this distinction to say, even though we will, and that just became kind of our family's battle cry, our mantra. This is the truth that we're going to speak over ourselves, number one. And number two, we were looking at names.

Andrew Estes (20:50.105)

And there were people all around the world praying for a son, which was unbelievable. And we made this distinction, say, even though we will, and that just became kind of our family's battle cry, our mantra. This is the truth that we're gonna speak of ourselves, number one.

And number two, were looking at names, and and we we looked at Noah and we said, okay, Noah means rest. And Noah means that we can find rest and in comfort and safety in the midst of suffering, in the midst of tragedy, in the midst of chaos, in the midst of all things feel like they're coming apart.

Matthew Efird (21:08.992)

And and we we looked at Noah and we said, Okay, Noah means rest. And Noah means that we can find rest and and comfort and safety in the midst of suffering, in the midst of tragedy, in the midst of chaos, in the midst of all things feel like they're coming apart. We can find rest because our God is the same today.

Andrew Estes (21:33.644)

we can find rest because our god is the same today as he was yesterday as he will be tomorrow he is never changing and even though our circumstances have changed his character has not and so those two kind of things we we really in tandem kind of came together and it was just a way for us to say this this matters and the way that we navigate this next season in our life matters a lot

Matthew Efird (21:37.377)

as he was yesterday, as he will be tomorrow. He is never changing. And even though our circumstances have changed, his character has not. And so those two kind of things we we really in tandem kind of came together. And it was just a way for us to say this this matters. And the way that we navigate this next season in our life matters a lot.

Andrew Estes (22:02.776)

Yeah. I love goodness man, there's so so many good things, so many different directions to to kinda go. I'm kinda curious of obviously an eighteen month old and isn't necessarily gonna be able to grasp the reality of everything that's kinda going on. Like w I mean probably it was two by the time he was born or give it give or take. And so yeah, so I I mean I have a two year old right now, about two and a half, and so I'm just thinking of the things that he can comprehend and

Matthew Efird (22:21.154)

Yeah. Yeah, he was too. Yeah, he was too.

Andrew Estes (22:30.903)

can't comprehend and it's probably more than we what we think. But at the same time, I'm curious as to I mean, because you have multiple other boys as well. three three other kids, is that correct? Yeah. Tell me tell me how just this story and the way that you describe your family and how you help your other boys kind of understand maybe what's missing currently out of your family or you've even if that's the the wrong language to use. Like what what what is that now

Matthew Efird (22:39.918)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Matthew Efird (22:57.443)

No, no.

Andrew Estes (22:58.69)

What does that look like in in your home right now? Just you know, 'cause your other boys are how old currently? Yeah, so we have an eight, five, and three year old home. Okay. So some of

Matthew Efird (23:04.162)

Yeah, so we have an eight, five, and three year old at home. And so some of the the language that I've learned to talk about is is the way I introduce myself. I have four sons. I have an eight year old, a would-be six year old, five year old, and three year old. Right. Cause what I learned real quick, Andrew, is I can go into the grocery store. So this happened. This happened to us in April of twenty twenty. So we're a month out from burying my son. We're in the midst of COVID.

Andrew Estes (23:11.448)

Is

Andrew Estes (23:16.747)

six years.

'Cause what I'll learn.

Andrew Estes (23:31.625)

my son. We're in the midst of COVID. It is chaos. And we're getting groceries and the person behind the counter that's helping kind of bag our groceries in a very sweet, innocent way, says, Mom and Dad, where do you give him a baby brother or baby sister? my gosh. And we we just said, you know what, we're working on it. And we didn't say anything else.

Matthew Efird (23:34.176)

It is chaos. And we're getting groceries and the person behind the counter that's helping kind of bag our groceries in a very sweet, innocent way, says, Mom and Dad, where are you gonna give him a baby brother, baby sister?

And we we just said, you know what, we're working on it. And we didn't say anything else. Nothing else. Because in the moment, what I can do is I can crush her, right? I can absolutely crush her. And but that's that's not my heart. My heart is not to do that. My heart is to honor my son. And so we try to, as a couple, you know, what we learned.

Andrew Estes (24:00.562)

Nothing else because in the moment, what I can do is I can crush her. Absolutely crush her. And but that's that's not my heart. My heart is not to do that. My heart is to honor my son. And so we try to as a couple, you know, what we learn there's a lot of grace that has to be extended in in the marriage, right? We we got pulled aside.

Matthew Efird (24:22.36)

There's a lot of grace that has to be extended in in the marriage. Right. We we got pulled aside at one of our doctor's appointments. one of the guys that very generously endorsed the book. And he's our palliative career. He's the head of the NICU, the neonatologist, I think's his official title. And he pulled me aside and he said, Hey Matthew, how's your marriage? And I said, Well, Dr. Cron, I think it's pretty good. High school sweethearts.

Andrew Estes (24:28.968)

At one of our doctor's appointments. one of the guys that very generously endorsed the book. And he's our palliative career, he's the head of the NICI, the neonatologist. That's his official title. And he pulled me aside and he said, Hey Matthew, how was your marriage? And I said, Well, Dr. Cron, I think it's pretty good. High school sweethearts, best friends for a long time. We love each other really well. We're

Matthew Efird (24:52.002)

Best friends for a long time. We love each other really well. We're hurting, but we're doing okay. And he said, Well, I've been doing this 35 years, and this goes one of two ways every time. And this will either drive you together or it will drive you apart. There is no in-between. So you need to know that the road that you're walking down is going to mark you. And you need to be prepared for that. And so

Andrew Estes (24:57.717)

hurting but we're doing okay. And he said, Well I've been doing this thirty-five years and this goes one of two ways every time. And this will either drive you together or it will drive you apart. There is no in between. So you need to know that the road that you're walking down is going to mark you. And you need to be prepared for that. And so that was a a gift that he gave us, gave me specifically as a man.

Matthew Efird (25:22.018)

That was a a gift that he gave us, gave me specifically as a man of like, hey, buddy, like, you know, you you can be a doofus a lot of times. Like I can be. But you're leading in your family and you need to know that in the midst of your suffering, there are days coming on the other side of this cloud that you're in. And Lord willing, there will be decades with you and your wife and your other kids. And so the way that you show up really, really matters. The way that you show up as an individual.

Andrew Estes (25:27.827)

Of like, hey, buddy, like, you know, you you can be a doofus a lot of times. Like, I can be. But you're leading in your family, and you need to know that in the midst of your suffering, there are days coming on the other side of this cloud that you're in. And Lord willing, there will be decades with you and your wife and your other kids. And so the way that you show up really, really matters. The way that you show up as an individual, like it it matters. You you need to talk to somebody. You need to

Matthew Efird (25:51.493)

Like it it matters. You you need to talk to somebody. You need to work on yourself. You need to read. You need to write. You need to worship. You need you need to find a way to accept the circumstances that are going on in you. And so that was something that we had to do. I had to do that a lot for my sons. We were given a book. I still remember who sent it to us. We got a lot of those kind of stories where people very generously just gave

Andrew Estes (25:56.062)

Work on yourself. You need to read. You need to write. You need to worship. You need you need to find a way to accept the circumstances that are going on in you. And so that was something that we had to do. I had to do that a lot for my sons. We were given a book, I still don't remember who sent it to us. We got a lot of those kind of stories where people very generously just gave with no expectation of return.

Matthew Efird (26:21.688)

With no expectation of return, no really ability for us to even know, honestly. And somebody gave us this book called The Rabbit Listens. I referenced it in in my book. It's a kid's book that is helping acknowledge loss in a child. So the rabbit listens, a little boy builds a tower, all of these it the wind knocks it over.

Andrew Estes (26:24.478)

No really ability for us to even know. Honest. And somebody gave us this book called The Rabbit Listens. I reference it in in my book. It's a kid's book that is helping acknowledge loss in a child. So the rabbit listens, the little boy builds a tower, all of these the wind knocks it over, all of these animals come through, they tell the little boy.

Matthew Efird (26:48.886)

All of these animals come through. They tell the little boy how to feel and what he should do. And then we come to the end of the story and it's this little rabbit. And he comes up and he sits by the boy. He just sits there. And the little boy eventually looks over at the rabbit and says, I'm really sad that my tower fell over. And the rabbit says, I know that was probably really hard. Would you like for help rebuilding it? And they rebuild the tower together.

Andrew Estes (26:52.431)

how to feel and what he should do. And then we come to the end of the story and it's this little rabbit. And he comes up and he sits by the boy. And he just sits there. And the little boy eventually looks over at the rabbit and says, I'm really sad that my tower fell over. And the rabbit says, I know that was probably really hard. Would you like to help rebuild you? And they rebuild the tower together. I see that model in Job's life. Right? Going back to Job.

Matthew Efird (27:15.62)

I see that modeled in Job's life, right? Going back to Job, Job extreme suffering has friends come to suffer with him, grieve with him. The first part of their journey is great. They sit with him, they mourn with him, and then they open their mouth. And then they try to tell Job what to do and how to feel and how to interact with God. Not all we're called to do. We should be there with them.

Andrew Estes (27:21.864)

Job extreme suffering has friends come to suffer with him, grieve with him. The first part of their journey is great. They sit with him, they mourn with him, and then they open their mouth, and then they try to tell Job what to do and how to feel and how to interact with God. Not all we're called to do. We should be there with them.

Matthew Efird (27:45.613)

And so I've tried to model that with my sons. I've tried to model not being okay and expressing how I'm feeling, as weird as that is as a dad, as a man to talk about feelings. I try to model that a little bit better for my for my boys. I try to articulate the way that I'm feeling. I try to ask better questions. I try not to always give a lot of answers. And then I try to give them my presence.

Andrew Estes (27:45.983)

And so I've tried to model that with my sons. I've tried to model not being okay and expressing how I'm feeling, as weird as that is as a dad, as a man to talk about feelings. I try to model that a little bit better for my for my boys. I try to articulate the way that I'm feeling. I try to ask better questions. I try not to always give a lot of answers.

And then I try to give them my pre presence. So I I have the opportunity to speak all over the country and I talk a lot about this idea of we show up, we listen, and then we deploy. So so often grief is hard, obviously, but it's isolating because people don't know what to do. They don't how to interact. They don't know the right thing to say or not say.

Matthew Efird (28:15.106)

So I I have the opportunity to speak all over the country and I talk a lot about this idea of we show up, we listen, and then we deploy. So so often grief is hard, obviously, but it's isolating because people don't know what to do. They don't know how to interact. They don't know the right thing to say or not say. They're afraid of saying the wrong thing.

Andrew Estes (28:41.656)

They're afraid of saying the wrong thing. And I promise you, that person that's grieving, they're longing for somebody to come sit with them. They are. Yeah. They're longing for human connection. Because their grief has isolated them. Their grief has made them feel like they're the only ones in the world that's going through this. And no one else knows what it's like. While their story is unique.

Matthew Efird (28:43.938)

And I promise you, that person that's grieving, they're longing for somebody to come sit with them. They are. They're longing for human connection because their grief has isolated them. Their grief has made them feel like they're the only ones in the world that's going through this. And no one else knows what it's like. While their story is unique, right? Their story is unique to them. No one else has ever walked in their exact shoes. There are experiences that we go through.

Andrew Estes (29:06.596)

Right. Their story is unique to them. No one else has ever walked in their exact shoes. There are experiences that we go through that allow us windows into somebody else's story. And it allows us to connect. That's what empathy should be. It shouldn't be a tool that I beat you over the head with, just like that lady at the grocery store, right? I don't beat you over the head and say your story doesn't matter, just look, I want you to listen to my story. No, no, no. I I could take my story, the loss of my son.

Matthew Efird (29:13.784)

That allow us windows into somebody else's story. And it allows us to connect. That's what empathy should be. It shouldn't be a tool that I beat you over the head with, just like that lady at the grocery store, right? I don't beat you over the head and say, Your story doesn't matter. Just let me I want you to listen to my story. No, no, no. I I can take my story, the loss of my son, and I can connect with people deeply on an empathetic level that I can help lead them and encourage them and hopefully steward them closer to Christ. So

Andrew Estes (29:34.829)

And I can connect with people deeply on an empathetic level that I can help lead them and encourage them and hopefully stewer them closer to Christ. So in my life, I do that with my boys. I sit with them, I talk with them, we talk about our son Noah. We talk about him all the time. we we share about him, we share about what we remember about him, we share about his birthday, we celebrate his birthday.

Matthew Efird (29:43.339)

In my life, I do that with my boys. I sit with them, I talk with them, we talk about our son Noah. We talk about him all the time. we we share about him, we share about what we remember about him, we share about his birthday, we celebrate his birthday. One of the things that we started several years ago is we let the boys pick out the cupcake combination, which is just something fun. The

Andrew Estes (30:03.104)

One of the things that we started several years ago is we let the boys pick out the cupcake combination, which is just something fun. The the flavors are getting more crazy as we go further down the road, but it's something sweet that we get to do. I've taken all of my sons to Noah's graveside. I've had an opportunity to talk to them about death, about loss, and about God's goodness. And that

Matthew Efird (30:12.472)

The flavors are getting more crazy as we go further down the road, but it's something sweet that we get to do. I've taken all of my sons to Noah's graveside. I've had an opportunity to talk to them about death, about loss, and about God's goodness. And that our we believe unapologetically that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, and He is my Savior.

Andrew Estes (30:32.355)

Are we believe unapologetically that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, and He is my Savior. And I believe that my son Noah is in his presence, that he died here in his earthly dad's arms, and he went into his heavenly father's arms. And as David said, He will, I will go to him, he will not return to me. And so we lean into that a lot as a family. And we again.

Matthew Efird (30:40.598)

And I believe that my son Noah is in his presence, that he died here in his earthly dad's arms, and he went into his heavenly father's arms. And as David said, He will, I will go to him, he will not return to me. And so we lean into that a lot as a family. And we again, the the words that we speak over ourselves matter. And so we really try to speak truth and help our sons.

Andrew Estes (31:00.872)

the the words that we speak over ourselves matter. And so we really try to speak truth and help our sons with asking better questions. Yeah, man. I it's it's such a

Matthew Efird (31:09.964)

With asking better questions.

Andrew Estes (31:19.726)

It's such a strange gift to be able to help help your help your family just kind of navigate and and kinda understand of that some of that stuff really, really early. something that I never had to really encounter. hadn't hadn't ever lost anybody super close until much later in life, much, much beyond the the age of two, that's for sure. But I you know, even even in ministry hadn't had a lot of opportunity to engage people like this.

until maybe fifteen years ago or so and had a had a young couple that was about my age at the time. We had just had one kid. I think my wife was maybe pregnant with our second or had just had our second. And there was another couple in our church who just had a a horrible experience and in in the birthing room had found out that when they gave birth that the that it was a stillborn and like a a a

Matthew Efird (32:13.912)

Wow. Wow.

Andrew Estes (32:17.011)

An appointment the previous week, everything looked fine, all was good, and then go into the the delivery room, and then immediately when baby comes out, it was just chaos from from their perspective. And so it just I had a had a stillborn immediately. And so it was just this expectation and joy immediately just kind of crushed on its head, you know, probably very similar to some of what you experienced. But I remember not

Matthew Efird (32:20.536)

Yeah.

Matthew Efird (32:29.058)

Yeah. Sure.

Andrew Estes (32:43.337)

not really feeling prepared or equipped, being much younger in ministry to to be able to navigate conversations around some of that type of stuff and how do we how do we come alongside them, how do we navigate that? And obviously their their life group that they were a part of was tremendous in that season. But then I also remember a year or two later when they got pregnant and were were heading to like delivery deliver their their next child of just the anxiety that I felt

Matthew Efird (32:45.742)

Sure.

Matthew Efird (33:11.438)

Yeah.

Andrew Estes (33:11.85)

Towards towards their family going into that. Everything was great, kids still happy and healthy, you know, I'm like probably 10 years old at this point, but it was just the the anxiety and just the uncertainty that I remember feeling as a pastor of just I don't really know what to do, what to say. And I'm not naturally, you know, kind of people oriented anyway. I'm just very kind of process oriented, thought driven and things of that nature. But it was just that moment of realizing I feel ill equipped.

as to how to engage at this level. And I've always felt and resonated with those pastors were like, Yeah, you don't want me by your bedside in the hospital. I'm just not good in those environments. I I like getting stuff done and doing driving and things like that and all the I'm making doting the I's, crossing the T's and making stuff happen. But I'm not great in that environment. And so I know that there's a lot of personalities kind of similar to mine, but at the same time

for for people that are that are really adept at at doing that type of stuff and and even not, you know, just being able to just like the rabbit listens type of scenario where it's you don't have to have all the answers. You just just your presence is is significant. It matters so much, man. I I so I had our our senior pastor, dear friend of mine, mentor

Matthew Efird (34:19.99)

It matters so much, man. I I so I had our our senior pastor, dear friend of mine, mentor of mine. I I've known him for gosh, eighteen years now. And and I I cherish him. And one of the gifts that he gave me during this season as my pastor is he called me and he said, Hey Matthew, I'm gonna take you to lunch.

Andrew Estes (34:32.667)

And

And one of the gifts that he gave me during this season as my pastor is he called me and he said, Hey Matthew, I want to take you to lunch and I'm gonna come pick you up. I'm gonna take you to lunch. You're not gonna pay, and we're gonna hang out. And I said, Okay. I didn't have to plan anything. He we'd we go to lunch a lot, right?

Matthew Efird (34:49.836)

And I'm gonna come pick you up. I'm gonna take you to lunch. You're not gonna pay. And we're gonna hang out. And I said, okay. I didn't have to plan anything. He wit's we go to lunch a lot, right? I knew the spot we were going. There was some familiarity there. But we rode in the truck and he said, I want you to know that I always want to hear about Noah. Always.

Andrew Estes (35:05.563)

I knew the spot we were going. There was some familiarity there. But we rode in the truck. And he said, I want you to know that I always want to hear about knowing. Always. This is a safe place for you to share about knowing. This is a safe place for you to share about how you're feeling, whether it's right or wrong. That's not what this place is for. It's just for you to share.

Matthew Efird (35:19.416)

This is a safe place for you to share about Noah. This is a safe place for you to share about how you're feeling, whether it's right or wrong. That's not what this place is for. It's just for you to share. It doesn't have to be well articulated. I'm not gonna video it and put it out on the internet. I'm not gonna share a prayer request in the Wednesday night Bible study that, my word, I got this guy and he's got crazy thoughts. I'm not doing any of that. I just want you to know I'm here and I always want to know about Noah.

Andrew Estes (35:32.581)

It doesn't have to be well articulated. I'm not gonna video it, put it out the internet. I'm not gonna share a prayer request in the Wednesday night Bible study that, my word, I got this guy and he's got crazy thoughts. I'm not doing any of that. I just want you to know I'm here and I always want to know about Noah, but I'm not always gonna ask you because I don't want you to feel the burden of that every time we hang out. Yeah. So if you want to talk about Georgia football, we're talking about Georgia football the whole time.

Matthew Efird (35:49.487)

But I'm not always going to ask you because I don't want you to feel the burden of that every time we hang out. So if you want to talk about Georgia football, we're talking about Georgia football the whole time. If you want to talk about hunting, if you want to go fishing, if you want to play golf, like I'm here. I will invite you to things. I will continue to hold you close. Right. The definition that I love of accountability that I've been kind of crafting over the last few years is I want to care enough.

Andrew Estes (36:01.05)

If you want to talk about hunting, if you want to go fishing, if you want to play golf, like I'm here, I will invite you to things. I will continue to hold you close. Right. The definition that I love of accountability. I've been kind of crafting over the last few years is I want to care enough to hold you close and call you higher. I'm not trying to find you doing the wrong thing. I'm trying to help call you into what God's calling you to.

Matthew Efird (36:18.392)

To hold you close and call you higher. I'm not trying to find you doing the wrong thing. I'm trying to help call you into what God's calling you to. And so he just gave me this incredible gift of like, I just want to give you my presence. So some days we're gonna laugh. Some days we're gonna cry. Both of those are okay. Some days we're gonna not talk about him at all. We're not gonna talk about how you're feeling. We're not talking about the family. We're gonna talk about superficial things.

Andrew Estes (36:28.531)

And so he just gave me this incredible gift of like, I just want to give you my presence. So some days we're gonna laugh, some days we're gonna cry. Both of those are okay. Some days we're gonna not talk about him at all. We're not gonna talk about how you're feeling, we're gonna talk about the family, we're gonna talk about superficial things just for you to have an outlet to talk. And then other times we're gonna we're gonna kind of get into it. And I'm gonna I'm gonna ask some more questions.

Matthew Efird (36:47.874)

just for you to have an outlet to talk. And then other times we're gonna we're gonna kind of get into it. And I'm gonna I'm gonna ask some more questions. I'm going to probe a little bit deeper because I care enough to hold you close and call you higher. And man, that was just the the most incredible gift because everybody when you walk through a season of profound grief, everybody walks on eggshells around you.

Andrew Estes (36:56.655)

I'm going to probe a little bit deeper because I care enough to hold you close and call you higher. And man, that was just the the most incredible gift. Because everybody when you walk through a season of profound grief, everybody walks on eggshells around you. And it's weird. It's it's truly it's just weird. Like people that are are are

Matthew Efird (37:17.814)

And it's weird. It's it's truly it's just weird. Like people that are well our our our pastor and his wife came over right before we had come back to church, after Noah had passed. And they said, We want you to know like you're welcome to come back anytime you want to, but like when you're ready, let me tell you something. You need to know that people are hurting. They're not hurting like you're hurting, but they're hurting. They're not gonna know what to say.

Andrew Estes (37:25.984)

Pastor and his wife came over right before we had come back to church, after Noah had passed. And they said, We want you to know like you're welcome to come back anytime you want to, but like when you're ready, let me tell you something. You need to know that people are hurting. They're not hurting like you're hurting, but they're hurting. They're not gonna know what to say. They're going to avoid you, they're gonna run up and hug you and then leave, or they may say something really stupid.

Matthew Efird (37:47.215)

They're going to avoid you. They're going to run up and hug you and then leave. Or they may say something really stupid. I just want to prepare you right now. Like those are probably those three things are going to happen. You have done nothing wrong to cause any one of those three things. But that person that's grieving, they feel like they're the ones that's caused it. They feel like the black sheep immediately of like, what have I done to cause this?

Andrew Estes (37:55.79)

I just want to prepare you right now. Like those are probably those three things are gonna happen. You have done nothing wrong to cause any one of those three things. But yeah, that person that's grieving, they feel like they're the ones that cause it. They feel like the black sheep immediately of like, what have I done to cause this disconnect with people around me? And

Matthew Efird (38:16.312)

disconnect with people around me. And so that's that's advice. And then another piece of advice I'd love to share, we were at a breathe parents group. So they're an amazing organization to give a shout out to while we're waiting. Jill and Brad Sullivan, they're out of Arkansas, Hot Springs, Arkansas. It's a free weekend that they do all around the country. They've got multiple countries, all around the country. They've got multiple countries they're serving in now.

Andrew Estes (38:21.234)

So that's that's advice. And then another piece of advice I'd love to share. we were at a bereaved parents group. So they're an amazing organization to give a shout out to while we're waiting. Jill and Brad Sullivan, they're out of Arkansas, Hot Springs, Arkansas. It's a free weekend that they do all around the country. They've got multiple countries, all around B country, they've got multiple countries that are serving in now. It's a

Matthew Efird (38:45.814)

It's a Christian organization. They love the Lord and it's a free weekend for bereaved parents. If you can just get to the event, it's free. So any of your audience that's listen to that. If they've got church members, incredible organization. We just went to that this past spring. My wife and I did. So we're six years out from our story. And we're still learning. You know, I've got a no-a-size hole in my heart that will never be healed on this side of eternity. I'm still learning to

Andrew Estes (38:46.776)

Christian organization. They love the Lord and it's a free weekend for breed parents. You can just get to the event, it's free. So any of your audiences listen to that. I've got church members. Incredible organization. We just went to that. last spring, my wife and I did. So we're six years out from our story.

And we're still learning. You know, I've got a no-size hole in my heart that will never be healed on this side of eternity. I'm still learning to to love and to lead and to breathe down. But one of the things that we talked about in that group

Matthew Efird (39:15.672)

To love and to lead as a bereaved ad. But one of the things that we talked about at that group in that community setting is advice. Like what's advice we wish our community would have known? And one of the ladies there said, I wish that people would hear themselves say at least and then stop. Because normally on the other side of the word at least is something that is not helpful for somebody in the midst of grief.

Andrew Estes (39:22.831)

In that community setting is advice. Like, what's advice we wish our community would have known? One of the ladies there said, I wish that people would hear themselves say at least and then stop. Because normally on the other side of the word at least is something that is not helpful for somebody in the midst of grief. Yeah. Right? So let me let me tell you a couple of the at least we got

Matthew Efird (39:45.207)

Right. So let me let me tell you a couple of the at least that we got. At least you can have more kids. Okay. We can. Yeah, I got it. At at least he's in a better place. At least he's no longer hurting. At least he's with God. At least you have time to have. I mean, it's just like at on and on and on and on. Are those things true? Yeah, they are.

Andrew Estes (39:50.557)

At least you can have more kids. Okay. We can. Yeah, I got it. At least he's in a better place. At least he's no longer hurting. At least he's with God. At least you have time to have. I mean, it's just like at home and old and old and old. Are those things true? Yeah, they are. We did have more kids. Amazing blessing. I have four sons.

Matthew Efird (40:14.21)

We did have more kids. Amazing blessing. I have four sons. Is he with God? Absolutely. There's so much that I treasure that my son is in the presence of his savior. I I treasure that. As a grieving dad, especially early on in your grief, that is not a truth that I need to be reminded of on a regular basis. That is not a helpful thing to communicate to me.

Andrew Estes (40:19.475)

Is he with God? Absolutely. There's so much that I treasure that my son is in the presence of his savior. I treasure that. As a grieving dad, especially early on in your grief, that is not a truth that I need to be reminded of on a regular basis. That is not a helpful thing to communicate to me. There is a truth there, but it's not.

Matthew Efird (40:44.59)

There is a truth there, but it's not a way because it discounts the way that I'm currently feeling. It's a it's a way to deflect, right? So it's as I'm saying, hey Andrew, I see you hurting. Let me push you away from that hurt. Let me push you somewhere else. Right. As the church in general, we don't grieve well. We don't allow ourselves to lament. We don't allow ourselves to go to the place of we're suffering and God is near to the brokenhearted.

Andrew Estes (40:48.007)

a way because it discounts the way that I'm hurt to feel. It's a it's a way to deflect, right? So as as I'm saying, hey Andrew, I see you hurting. Let me push you away from the net or we push you somewhere else. Right? As the church in general, we don't grieve. We don't allow ourselves to lament. We don't allow ourselves to go to the place of we're suffering and God is near to the brokenhearted.

Matthew Efird (41:14.028)

And he rescues them. It is okay if our people are brokenhearted. They have a savior that will rescue them.

Andrew Estes (41:14.429)

If he rescues them. It is okay if our people are brokenhearted. They have a savior that will rescue them. Yeah, man. You I mean, so as you're as you're talking through just some of the equipping things of recognizing that empathy is not a weapon, it's a tool, of of recognizing, you know, just thing the there's a slew of things not to say, right? I mean, like I know exactly what you're feeling, or like the at least types types of phrases.

but even as as it occurs to me as you're as you're talking through almost the expectations of what is to come from from pastoral counsel to you as you guys are navigating your grief of just saying, Hey, people are going to act like this around you and and being able to as from from like a pastoral perspective, being able to offer that. What what was that in particular like

Would would d did that just make it okay for you? Was that was I mean you you you kind of describe it as very helpful and and how they're just to navigate. People are crazy. But people people are are we're all deeply flawed, we're all deeply broken, we're all in need of a savior. No one can can say something that brings your son.

Matthew Efird (42:14.968)

Yeah, it's just a it's just a resource, right? It's just it's it's the resource to say people are crazy, but but but people people are are we're all deeply flawed, we're all deeply broken, we're all in need of a savior. No one can can say something that brings your son.

Matthew Efird (42:38.884)

People aren't okay with that. People want to know the right thing to say. We so often want to be the hero. We want to be the one that makes it all better. We struggle with that if we're honest with ourselves in ministry, right? We get into this role and like, man, I can make this incredible impact. I can, I can have this huge influence. All of it's true. We get way more caught up in what we can do rather than what God can do. And we end up putting our foot in our mouth.

Andrew Estes (42:39.378)

People aren't okay with that. People want to know the right thing to say. We so often want to be the hero. We want to be the one that makes it all better. We struggle with that if we're honest with ourselves in ministry, right? We get into this role of like, man, I can make this incredible impact. I can I can have this huge influence. All of it's true. We get way more caught up in what we can do rather than what God can do. And we end up putting our foot in our mouth.

Matthew Efird (43:08.162)

Way too much. But that advice for for Hannah and I was just a kind of a a culture shock to say you you're you're kind of walking around like nuclear toxic waste and people are just don't know how to handle you. That will wear off, but for a period of time, that's gonna kind of be there. And so the way that I handle that now.

Andrew Estes (43:08.49)

way too much. But that advice for for Hannah was just a kind of a a culture shot to say you you're you're kind of walking around like nuclear toxic waste and people are just don't know how to handle you. That will wear off, but for a period of time that's gonna kind of be there. And so the way that I handle that now.

Matthew Efird (43:36.291)

Whenever I know somebody's walking through a season of grief, whether it's a loved one who's made a stupid decision, whether it's a loved one who's just got a difficult diagnosis, whether it's they've lost a job, family members lost a job, like there's all types of loss. It's not just infant loss, all types of loss that we experience. Loss is a universal truth that everyone goes through. I acknowledge it. I just come out and say, Hey, I know that your family's going through this, just like my pastor did for me.

Andrew Estes (43:36.657)

Whenever I know somebody's walking through a season of grief, whether it's a loved one who's made a stupid decision, whether it's a loved one who's just got a difficult diagnosis, whether it's they've lost a job, family members lost a job. Like there's all types of loss. It's not just infant losses. All types of losses we experience. Loss is a universal truth that everyone goes through. I acknowledge it. I just come out and say, hey, I know that your family's going through this.

Just like my pastor did for me. Yeah. I know that you're going through this. It does not change my opinion of you. I want you to know that I love you. I'm here for you. Anytime you want to talk about it, I'm willing to talk about it. But I'm not gonna continue to bring it up. I'm not gonna try to talk around it in weird ways. Right. I want you to be able to have a safe place to talk. That's the way that I handle that now. And then

Matthew Efird (44:06.348)

I know that you're going through this. It does not change my opinion of you. I want you to know that I love you. I'm here for you. Anytime you want to talk about it, I'm willing to talk about it. But I'm not going to continue to bring it up. I'm not going to try to talk around it in weird ways. Right. I want you to be able to have a safe place to talk. That's the way that I handle that now. And then I have learned that.

Andrew Estes (44:32.624)

I have learned that people specifically in loss of like separation. So a child has died, a parent has died, a spouse or a sibling has died. Those people long to talk about it. Right? Like I long to talk about my son though. I love to talk about him. I have three other amazing boys that are home. I get to watch them grow.

Matthew Efird (44:33.976)

People specifically in loss of like separation. So a child has died, a parent has died, a spouse or a sibling has died. Those people long to talk about them. Right? Like I long to talk about my son Noah. I love to talk about him. I have three other amazing boys that are home. I get to watch them grow. I get to see and interact with their friends and their parents.

Andrew Estes (45:00.91)

I get to see and interact with their friends and their parents. I get to have people ask me questions about them. Hey, what's Walker into? Is he liking this sport? Is he liking this activity? Hey, is Warren still being crazy? He's our our fourth at home. Or he's our fourth, our third at home. He's our George Tornado. He's wild. We loved him. he is is able to do it wh whatever it may be, right? That that we have this amazing ability to

Matthew Efird (45:03.736)

I get to have people ask me questions about them. Hey, what's Walker into? Is he liking this sport? Is he liking this activity? Hey, is Warren still being crazy? He's our our fourth at home, or he's our fourth, our third at home. He's our door tornado. He's wild. We love him. hey, is is able do it what whatever it may be, right? That that we have this amazing ability to invite people to share.

Andrew Estes (45:31.103)

invite people to share about their loved one and we can listen right it's about asking better questions than having better answers and so when I learn of somebody that's had a loss in the conversation I try to get to the question hey will you tell me about so and so I would love to get to know them. I'd love for you to tell me about them and then just kind of sit back and listen and ask some additional questions. Right that

Matthew Efird (45:33.089)

about their loved one. And we can listen. Right. It's about asking better questions than having better answers. And so when I learn of somebody that's had a loss in the conversation, I try to get to the question, hey, will you tell me about so and so? I would love to get to know them. I'd love for you to tell me about them. And then just kind of sit back and listen and ask some additional questions. Right. That what a what a way to minister to someone's heart.

Andrew Estes (45:58.966)

What a what a way to minister to someone's heart that is that is suffering, that's longing to be reunited with that loved one. And now I get to open up the the joy of this life that they got to share. Maybe it was a long life, maybe it was a very short life, but they got to share time with this person. And now they get to reminisce, they get to process, they get to articulate the way.

Matthew Efird (46:01.56)

that is that is suffering, that's longing to be reunited with that loved one. And now I get to open up the the joy of this life that they got to share. Maybe it was a long life, maybe it was a very short life, but they got to share time with this person. And now they get to reminisce, they get to process, they get to articulate the way that those emotions that they feel, that they made them feel, all of those things.

Andrew Estes (46:26.84)

with emotions that they feel, that they made them feel, all of those things. So that that's that's what I pushed for in in that I that I helped them. Yeah, one of one of the key phrases that kind of stood out to me in in the book was the idea that redemption does not erase the darkness. It enters it and and there there's a hope

Matthew Efird (46:30.862)

So that that's that's what I what I pushed for in in the way that I that I help now.

Matthew Efird (46:46.85)

Yeah. Yeah.

Andrew Estes (46:54.057)

that kind of comes out of a story like this. And I I was reminded and I went through the perspectives course, like the perspectives on the World Christian Mission. And it was just this idea of interviewing so many different missionaries and just learning about all these different ways that the gospel has advanced all across the nations. And and one guy came in to speak who shared his story about going into Mongolia and reaching unreached people groups.

And one of the things that he talked about was it was him his family and another family, and they had just had a child, and then a few months in, maybe a year into the child being born died of SIDS. And and they they expressed how when they were going into this unreached group, the gospel just felt like it was just kind of hitting a wall with so many different people. And it wasn't until

Matthew Efird (47:37.751)

Well.

Andrew Estes (47:52.554)

the death of their child and the people in the country viewed this couple because differently because they grieved with hope. And that was something so foreign to them that it really unlocked a lot of the gospel movement that kind of took place. And I'm curious, not just to to reaffirm just that story, but I'm just curious in just the how how redemption has

Matthew Efird (48:09.005)

Well

Andrew Estes (48:17.75)

Has stepped into this darkness in in your life and just the the problem of of sin and death and things like that. What has God done through just this testimony? I mean I know that you guys have done so many different things, started ministries and different things, but but can you share just any any stories that has just kind of come out of just because of everything that's kind of taken place? Yeah, so I can I can share a few and are

Matthew Efird (48:34.308)

Sure.

Matthew Efird (48:43.244)

Yeah, so I can I can share a few. and I'll try to be brief. Th there have been

Andrew Estes (48:48.012)

That there have been

Matthew Efird (48:52.641)

It it it's

Andrew Estes (48:53.118)

And it it's

Matthew Efird (48:56.044)

It's amazing the weight that that the story carries and and the way that I'm able to articulate it, that there's a hope. The the goal that I have is that people will know there's hope in the midst of their suffering because they have a risen savior that they can serve, that he loves them, that he died for them, that his grace and his mercy are sufficient for them.

Andrew Estes (48:56.572)

It's amazing the weight that that the story carries and and the way that I'm able to articulate it, that there's a hope. The the goal that I have is that people will know there's hope in the midst of them for suffering. Because they have a risen savior, the present. That he loves them, that he died for them, that his grace and his mercy are sufficient.

them and in that you know our our testimony is something that is a beautiful truth in our life because it's God's work in and through us and so what it does is it it cannot be discounted it can be ignored but it cannot be discounted right this is my testimony this is the story that I walk through

Matthew Efird (49:26.416)

And in that, you know, our our testimony is something that is a beautiful truth in our life because it's God's work in and through us. And so what it does is it it cannot be discounted. It can be ignored, but it cannot be discounted. Right. This is my testimony. This is the story that I walk through.

So who are you to tell me I didn't walk through it? I walk through this. This is my testimony. This is the work that Jesus has done in my life. I write about in the book, you know, the foundational arc. Like the only reason that Hannah and I are are standing, that we're still married, that that we are continuing to live is because of Jesus and him alone. And so I get to share that with bereaved parents.

Andrew Estes (49:54.825)

So who are you gonna tell me I didn't walk through it? I walked through this. This is my testimony. This is the work that Jesus has done in my life. Right about the book, you know, the foundational art. Like the only reason that Hannah and I are are standing, that we're still married, that that we are continuing to live is because of Jesus and him alone. And so I get to share that with bereaved parents.

Matthew Efird (50:22.882)

I get to share that with parents that that have received that difficult diagnosis. They've received a terminal diagnosis for their child. Maybe they're close to God, maybe they're far from God. I get to ask better questions now because I know a lot better questions to ask. I get to share about my son Noah. And in that, I get to offer some encouragement in pointing them back to the one, the ultimate comforter.

Andrew Estes (50:23.362)

I get to share that with parents that that have received that difficult diagnosis. They've received a terminal diagnosis for their child. Maybe they're close to God, maybe they're far from God. I get to ask better questions now because I know a lot better questions to ask. I get to share about my son Noah. And in that, I get to offer some encouragement and pointing them back to the one, the ultimate comfort.

The the peace that surpasses all understanding, right? The the prince of peace. I get to point them back to that. It's not me. I'm not the one that did this well. It's Christ in me. So that's something that that we've done from early on. That we would get connected to families, we would share a lot of those stories. You know, I've got a podcast that I run.

Matthew Efird (50:53.742)

The the peace that surpasses all understanding, right? The the prince of peace. I get to point them back to that. It's not me. I'm not the one that did this well. It's Christ in me. So that's something that that we've done from early on. That we would get connected to families. We would share a a lot of those stories. You know, I've got a podcast that I run.

I have the opportunity to speak and to travel and you know, our businesses have been has have won awards and God's blessed them and we've got gr incredible teams and great locations that we serve. And it's given me a platform to share about my son Noah. So there's a lot of redemption there. It's a lot of allowing people to not be okay. It's a lot of breaking down the facade of everything has to be put together and put together well.

Andrew Estes (51:22.235)

I have an opportunity to speak and to travel and you know our businesses have been has have won awards and God's blessed them and we've got gr incredible teams and great locations that we serve. And it's given me a platform to share about my son Noah. So there's a lot of redemption there. It's a lot of allowing people to not be okay. It's a lot of breaking down the facade of

Everything has to be put together and put together well. It's also a reality check on this is not a health, wealth, and prosperity gospel. That is not the gospel. Because in this life we will have trials, we will have tribulations, but we can take heart for he has overcome the war the world. John 16, 33. We were promised that. So we don't teach that.

Matthew Efird (51:52.301)

It's also a reality check on this is not a health, wealth, and prosperity gospel. That is not the gospel. Because in this life we will have trials, we will have tribulations, but we can take heart for he has overcome the world, the world. John 16, 33, right? He we were promised that. So we don't teach that because when we face trials, if we're taught that it's going to be a health, wealth, and prosperity gospel.

Andrew Estes (52:14.377)

Because when we face trials, if we're taught that that's going to be a health, wealth, and prosperity gospel, then people abandon the faith because they think, well, God's abandoning me because this is not what I was taught. Then, Andrew, what's been really cool is on the corporate side, right? I I love the sneaky Jesus perspective, right? I get to go into boardrooms, I get to go on conference stages, and I get to share. I get to share a lot of biblical truth, and I can share a hope.

Matthew Efird (52:19.224)

Then people abandon the faith 'cause they think, Well, God's abandoned me 'cause this is not what I was taught.

Then, Andrew, what's been really cool is on the corporate side, right? I I love the sneaky Jesus perspective, right? I get to go into boardrooms, I get to go on conference stages, and I get to share. And I get to share a lot of biblical truth. And I get to share a hope that our Savior provides in rooms that normally are pretty hostile to that. Is I'm not I'm not saying I'm persecuted. I'm not saying I'm trying to

Andrew Estes (52:43.854)

That our savior provides in rooms that normally are pretty hostile to that. It's I'm not I'm not saying I'm persecuted. I'm not saying I'm trying to belittle somebody who's in a like you're gonna get arrested or or or your head cut off or any of those things. Yeah. But but but I get into rooms that I've not been able to get into because of my son Noah. Okay, okay. And and it's

Matthew Efird (52:54.542)

belittle somebody who's in a like you're gonna get arrested or or or your head cut off or any of those kind of things. But but but I get into rooms that I've not been able to get into because of my son Noah. And and it's it's amazing to see God go into the worst thing that we've ever been through. The hardest, the darkest, the deepest.

Andrew Estes (53:12.182)

It's amazing to see God go into the worst thing that we've ever been through. The hardest, the darkest, the deepest, and and provide redemption. But he stepped right into that. And he said, like, hey, this this is going to be an incredible mantle of grace in your life.

Matthew Efird (53:24.522)

and and provide redemption that he stepped right into that and he said like hey this this is going to be an incredible mantle of grace in your life and it will be an incredible testimony for your good and for my glory for God's glory that that we we are living in that and while I wouldn't

Andrew Estes (53:40.459)

And it will be an incredible testimony for your good and for my glory, for God's glory, that that we we are living in that. And while I wouldn't ever want to walk through it again, I am so appreciative of the intimacy that I have with my savior, with my sons, and with my bride that I would not have if I had not navigated that with my sons.

Matthew Efird (53:54.049)

ever want to walk through it again. I am so appreciative of the intimacy that I have with my savior, with my sons, and with my bride that I would not have if I had not navigated that with my son Noah.

Andrew Estes (54:11.01)

Yeah. Yeah. Well, dude, I'm so grateful for just the opportunity to to connect with you and just learn a little bit more of your story of just story and just blessed by by Noah and his story, praying that yeah, just continued fruit and just the the ability to to speak into so many different leaders' lives, whether it's in the marketplace or in ministry, of just helping people learn how to navigate this and come alongside those who are grieving is is significant, man. So that I've I've been blessed by

You know, just being able to engage with your book, the even though we will book, and just yeah, just re looking at some of the things that I've heard many, many times. But just the the realness of the story and the the pain that you guys have have felt and articulated is yeah, continuing to help to help people grow. So appreciate that, man. Any any last advice, thoughts, encouragement that you would give to to pastors just kinda walking with people? Yeah.

Matthew Efird (54:56.878)

Thank you.

Matthew Efird (55:07.884)

Yeah, the the the people in your church need community. And we all know that. We know that on the surface level. But someone in the season of loss and grief, they need people. Don't allow the enemy to distract them and turn them inward. Surround them with people around them. Create a process. Create a system. Work with your elders, your deacons, your leadership team. Create

Andrew Estes (55:09.323)

The the people in your church need community. And we all know that. We know that on the surface level. But someone in the season of loss and grief, they need people. Don't allow the enemy to distract them and turn them inward. Surround them with people around them. Create a process. Create a system. Work with your elders, your deacons, your leadership team. Create

Matthew Efird (55:38.014)

In them, create in your volunteers a way to tangibly love on people and show up for them. Don't allow them to try to navigate this alone. If you're walking through a season of grief, if you're listening to this and you find yourself in that season, do not do this alone. You were not designed to do life alone. There are people in your life that love you. There are people in your life that want to be there for you. There's amazing people in this organization.

Andrew Estes (55:38.468)

in them create in your volunteers a way to tangibly love on people and show up for them. Don't allow them to try to navigate this along. If you're walking through a season of grief, if you're listening to this, and you find yourself in that season, do not do this alone. You were not designed to do lifelong. There are people in your life that love you. There are people in your life that want to be there for you. There's amazing people in this organization.

Matthew Efird (56:06.798)

that want to be there for you. Reach out to Andrew and his team. Like that there there are ways that that you can be loved on and served. Do not try to do this alone.

Andrew Estes (56:07.242)

They want to be there for you. Reach out to Andrew and his team. Like that there are ways that that you can be loved on and served. Do not try to do this alone. Yeah, that's good, man. Appreciate you and all all that you guys do. If anybody wants to connect or go deeper, man, with you or your resources, where can they find you at? Yeah, so you can find the the book at on Amazon.

Matthew Efird (56:26.146)

Yeah, so you can find the the book at on Amazon. You can find on our our website, eventhowewill.com. You can find me on MatthewEfoid.com, E F-I-R-D. It's like bird, but E F. So MatthewEfird.com. I'd be honored to connect and serve speak and train at conferences all over the country. I'd be I'd be honored to help.

Andrew Estes (56:47.102)

Awesome. Appreciate you, man. Thanks for your time. Thanks, brother. Yeah, of course. Thanks for having me.

Matthew Efird (56:48.654)

Thanks, brother. Yeah, of course. Thanks for having me.