19 Matthew LaGrange | Rediscover Honor

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (00:00)

don't think of yourself more highly than you ought.

Andrew Estes (00:00)

don't think of yourself more highly than you

I think the corollary to that is don't think of yourself less highly than you

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (00:02)

I think the corollary to that is don't think of yourself less highly than you ought.

You

know, the the reason why I believe God calls us to honor

Andrew Estes (00:07)

You know, the reason why I believe God calls us to honor.

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (00:11)

is because if we honor those God created, we're honoring Him by extension. If we dishonor those God created, we're

Andrew Estes (00:16)

extension. If we dishonor those God created,

dishonoring that's true of us too. So if I don't value

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (00:21)

Dishonoring him, Well, that's true of us too. So if I don't value me,

Andrew Estes (00:26)

the

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (00:26)

I'm dishonoring God because God created me too. God loves me too. I'm valuable in his sight. I'm inherently worthy of honor because I am his

Andrew Estes (00:27)

dishonoring God because God created me too. God loves me too. I'm valuable in his I'm inherently worthy of honor because I am

Andrew Estes (00:52)

Welcome back to the Nexus Church Planting podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Estes.

is there someone in your life right now who has to earn their way back with you? Maybe they left your church and told the story the wrong way. Maybe it's a boss or an elder who questions everything you bring to the table, or a parent, maybe that you dread visiting. Whoever it is, you've decided, probably without ever saying it out loud, that they'll get your best when they've earned it. That's how most of us were raised. And my guest today would tell you that that's what we call respect, right? It isn't, however

Honor. Honor was never something people earned. It's something that you give. It says more about you than it does about them. Dr. Matthew LeGrange has a doctorate in clinical psychology and founded His Story Coaching and Counseling in the Dallas-Fort Worth area. He's also been a friend of Nexus for the better part of two decades as he sat across the assessment table from hundreds of church planting couples, and a lot of you maybe are one of them.

His new book is Rediscover Honor, the lens that changes everything.

In this conversation, we cover where the book came from, why respect may quietly be failing us, and why honor is the better virtue.

Andrew Estes (02:04)

Matthew, so grateful for you, man. Thank you for joining us on the podcast. It's it's an

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (02:07)

Yeah, it's it's it's an honor to be here

and something that I'm really excited about. I've gotten to watch some of your episodes before and so I'm really excited to get grilled by the best. So let's let's have some fun.

Andrew Estes (02:20)

Awesome, man. Well, I I have not had a ton of interaction with you. All of the people that I usually interact with are are people that have gone through assessment where they you're across

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (02:29)

Mm-hmm.

Andrew Estes (02:30)

the table and I often get the the description of they feel very naked in front of you. So doing doing like church planting assessments where you are unpacking all of their deepest and darkest secrets and flaws and all of that type of stuff. But you've been doing

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (02:45)

Yeah.

Andrew Estes (02:45)

A

church planting assessment with Nexus for many, many years. What how long has that been?

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (02:48)

Yeah.

so I I actually went through Nexus assessment, I think it was seventeen years ago, it may have been eighteen. I they were looking to see if I could be not a church planter, but a multi-site pastor, campus pastor, and wanted to see if the process worked for that. But the interesting thing about going through it was, man, it was such a horrible time in our lives. it was not something we wanted to do. and I say we

Neither my wife nor I was really excited about the process of going through it. but we we actually walked away from it going, this was one of the best things that we've ever done as a couple. And and during the process, the guy who was leading it, Roger Gibson, he said, Matt, you're sitting on the wrong side of the table. He said, You need to be over here doing this. And Phil, in all his lack of wisdom,

ask me the next assessment if I would be a part of it. And it's really been a blessing. I've over over the years I've had a chance now to assess 437 couples

for church planting through various organizations, not just Nexus, but of those, I think we're in the neighborhood of 65 to 70% actually went and planted a church. And of those, I think our numbers are still pretty high.

At five years, there were still 70% of those that were still operating. I won't say all of them were healthy, but they were still in in play where

without assessment, without that process, the number was more like 20%. So just blessed to be a part of it. I'm not cut out to be a church planter. I I do like the the naked and afraid kind of image though that some people have.

of going through the process because I know that's what it feels like. We really work hard to try and make it not

that, but you don't know what it's going to be until you actually go through it. And our heart is really what can what can we see that God is doing in you and in your life and and through you as a couple so that we can really affirm you and and commend you on all the good things and point out the things you need to be aware of.

should you move forward with a plant because gosh it's it's not just anybody's work and you

know when you go out and you plant

Satan doesn't want you to be successful. And so he's gonna do whatever he can to make sure you're not. And so any crack that's there, he's gonna expose that. And so I'd rather you know it and let's figure out a way to deal with it rather than

have it come up and bite you in the butt down the road. I don't know if I can say that on this I I already said it. So there you go. Okay. Well, all right. Well, if if the comparison

Andrew Estes (05:41)

Yeah, yeah. I can say that on this down I already said it, so Phil Phil said way worse, man. You're totally phoned more.

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (05:49)

is Phil, I think I'm in in safe space. So

That's good.

Andrew Estes (05:53)

Yeah,

no, you're good for for people that are unaware of what assessment is, like just just give me a a broad over so we do it feels like a a three day, very intensive interview process, more or less. It's not just I mean, you you use the word assessment and people feel

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (06:05)

It is. Yeah.

Andrew Estes (06:07)

like it's just taking a personality quiz or things of that nature.

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (06:10)

Yeah. Yeah. And they

do take a personality quiz. Actually, they take three of them. and and so that's part of it. And we walk through those really to help you understand how you're wired and and what areas you need to kind of fill in. But the process itself is designed around a a process that Charles Ridley came up with a number of years ago that really looks at

Do you and have you demonstrated the skills necessary to successfully plant a church? And he came up originally with 13 what he called factors that on average, if you had these at a certain level, that was a good predictor of success at planting a church. And now it's been expanded to 15. Some of those are what we call critical factors. They're ones that

you know, if you don't have these, you really aren't ready yet.

to plant doesn't mean you can't. It's just right now it's not the right time. So but it's you get asked a series of questions and it feels like a thousand questions, many of which have the same answer, but we give you a chance to answer them over and over again in front of different groups of people. and they're trying to get a sense for, you know, I

I look at it this way, it's kind of like can we convict you of these 15 things?

Have you demonstrated enough of these behaviors that it's like, yes, you got it? so really, really interesting process, also a very, very successful process at helping determine

do you have the wiring at this point to be able to go and do this? So there's there's the behavioral assessment, and then there's my side of it, which is the clinical, let's get naked kind of place, where I'm really looking at.

Andrew Estes (08:13)

all that goes in?

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (08:03)

You know, is your marriage healthy? Are you in a healthy place? And is your personality makeup really conducive to doing this kind of work given all that goes into

it?

Andrew Estes (08:15)

Yeah, yeah, for sure. So you've done you've done this for for many years, working specifically with church planters, but you also have a practice, His Story

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (08:19)

Mm-hmm.

Andrew Estes (08:25)

coaching and counseling and and walking through some of that. I'd I'd love for you to just share real briefly just some of your your work that you do there and just kind of the genesis of that ministry.

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (08:31)

Sure.

Yeah. So I was called into full time ministry back in two thousand three and was brought into what was then Highland Meadows Christian Church, which then went on to become Compass Christian Church. Drew Sherman was a senior pastor and he and I were good friends back in Indiana. And so when he when he took the church, he called me and he said, I've got a place for you and I went, You're an idiot, which is true by the way. So if he sees this, I you're an idiot.

but he said, I've got a job for you and and I want you to come. And so my wife and I prayed about it

and and felt convicted that yes, in fact, we were supposed to. And it was kind of a bait and switch, you know, how you get into a job at a church and they have that contract you sign where it says end other duties as assigned by the senior pastor. You know, I had gotten my doctorate in clinical psychology at Purdue University and I'd been in practice for several years.

and actually got burnt out. And so I got out of it for a couple of years. and then Drew called me and asked me to come down to do small groups and involvement.

And three months in, the guy on our staff who was doing pastoral care went and started the the biblical counseling program at Dallas Theological Seminary. And so Drew looked around and he said, Who do we have who Matt, you're the guy? And I said, Dude, you you know my story. This is not

where I should be. And he's like, you need to read your contract.

And so I started it and I I did stand firm. I said, I'm gonna do this different than I did it before.

and so we started really small. I was seeing about five people a week. And over the next couple of years it just kept growing. So we got a had a really good reputation. I'd hired a female counselor to work with the women and then we got busy enough I brought on

An intern and a practicum student and just it continued to grow. It was the one thing in ministry that no matter what I did, I couldn't seem to screw up. And so by 2011, we had 10 counselors on our staff,

between practicums and licensed folks. And so we decided we needed to break away from the church, form our own 501c3.

because we were working with more and more other churches. They were sending their people to us. And we really needed to fundraise because making affordable care that

was really high quality was just not something that was readily available in our area. So in order to do that I needed to be a five one C three. And so in two thousand eleven we did that. We just celebrated our fifteenth anniversary, July one, and I think

right now i think we have 24 counselors and practicum students i've got several life coaches who who work with this as well

and then i do the work with church planting and churches so i'll i do the assessment process for lead pastors as well so so yeah it's been it's been a lot of fun and a lot of hard work and I think God is not done with me yet as old and gray as I am I think there are still

a number of years that I've got ahead of me to do God's work and

God willing I will.

Andrew Estes (11:59)

Yeah, yeah. That's awesome, man. So grateful for the the ministry that you've already had and just the the influence that you've had on so many different church planters and just trying to make it even even better right from the start and just making sure that we're going with the right guys. And you know, through through all of the years and all of your years of counseling and different things like that, you felt led to write a book more recently and the the title like Rediscover Honor, right? And how

How that shifts and changes things. I'm curious as to before we dive into the actual content of the book, or or maybe we will just go right into it, but what what led you to to focus in on that one piece? I mean, there of all the millions of different things that you probably could have written about and experienced and have

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (12:41)

Yeah. Well, I don't I don't know about

a million. you know, it's so fascinating because I've I it's been a bucket list item of mine to write a book and it's been that way for twenty-five years. You know, it's like I just wanted to do it. And I thought for a long time it was gonna be kind of my theory of people and and the lens that I see them through, why we do the stupid things we do, kind of thing. but

About 11 years ago, I had an interaction in my office that really changed changed me. It changed my approach to the clinical

work that I do. and it really kind of unpacked what I have found to be a transformative view

of how we're supposed to relate with others and with ourselves. And I just had a couple come into my office.

And I'd been working with them through an affair. And, you know, obviously those are really difficult things to work through, but we'd done some great work. I'd been about three years of a process and had gotten them to a pretty good place. And I get a call very early one one morning. It was a Thursday morning. And it's the wife and she's

not very happy. that's putting it mildly. She she called and she said, Hey, I filed for divorce this morning.

we're coming to see you at one o'clock. And I'm like, Okay, I I'm not real interested in having you come and yell at at him for an hour and just me be a witness. and she said, Well, I don't care, we're coming at one. So, okay, so sure enough, you know, comes in and I had no idea what had gone on, but I assumed

either he'd had another affair or something related to that. And she just goes off on him and

Basically, she said, He doesn't understand me. He just doesn't understand me. You know, and I'm like, Okay, what doesn't he understand? And it it was the whole story of that. it w it wasn't a matter of him not understanding what she was saying. It was that he didn't agree with what she wanted him to do, which

sh when he was having the affair, again, keep in mind that was three years ago. One of the times he met this person.

was in a sports bar and a friend of his was with him. Now as soon as she said that, I knew exactly what she was upset about. He's still friends with that friend. And sure enough, that's what it was. And he was like, but you don't understand. He was on your side. He didn't want me to do this. And she was just having none of it. So

we just went on and on. And I said, Okay. you know what? I I'm gonna just say this and

She'd already called me an idiot once during the session, but I said, I don't, I don't think it matters that he doesn't understand you. And to be perfectly honest, I don't think it matters whether or not he agrees with you. I think what matters is what he's doing about it. Have you asked him? And

she was like, I don't have to ask him. I know. I'm like, okay, well, would you mind if I ask him? Yeah, sure. Knock yourself out.

And it was such, you know, it was condescending and it was all of that stuff. But so I turned to him and I summarized it and and I said, So what are you doing? And he said, I haven't seen or talked to the guy in over six months. And that moment with such crystal clarity, I watched her jaw literally dry.

And she turned to him and she said, Why in the world would you do that?

And he said, because I love you. And that just was like a Tetris piece just falling into place perfectly. Because there was something about that, because I love you, that was so profound and it shifted my view. And I said, you know what? It doesn't matter that he doesn't understand. It doesn't matter that he doesn't agree. What he what matters is whether or not he honors you.

And I said that out loud for the first time. And

the hairs on the back of my neck went up and and I'm like going, gosh, how big is this? This feels like a huge moment. And so I I wanted to go into scripture and I really dug in and started

looking at does God care if we understand? Does God care if we agree with him? Or does he care that we honor him? And I went to story after story after story in scripture, and it was like, my gosh.

He does it. I mean, it's not bad if we understand. In fact, it he wants us to, but if we don't, what he really wants is are we willing to, because we love him, honor him?

And so I I just I talk about all the different, not all the different, but a lot of the examples from scripture in the book that, you know Abraham and Isaac, man, you talk about not understanding.

How in the world could you understand you wanting me to sacrifice my son after I had to wait until I was 90 something for this to happen? That's crazy. And yet

he was willing because he loved God and he trusted God and he did that. But even more so was Isaac. I mean, what in the world? He's a 13-year-old kid. Or so you can argue with me about the the theology of that statement, but

He was a young kid. He could have run circles around this hundred-year-old man. And and he even asked the question, where's the ram, Dad? And he said, God will provide. And

Abraham couldn't have picked him up and put him on the altar. And you know, he collected the wood, he put it there, he laid down on it. And his dad was standing over him with a knife, and he did it because he trusted his dad.

not understanding, not agreeing, but he honored. and it was like, Okay, this is cool. This is really cool. And I was like, All of this is old testament stuff.

What does the New Testament have to say? And that's when I I kinda came to the Matthew twenty two, verses thirty seven through forty section, where Jesus was asked the question, What is the greatest commandment? And he said, To love.

And so then I I'll paraphrase, you know, to value, to hold important, to honor the Lord your God with all of your heart, with all of your soul, with all of your mind. It's like, yeah,

we can wrap our brains around that. That one's pretty easy because God deserves it. But I think the interesting thing is God doesn't want it because he deserves it, he wants it because we choose him, because we love him. So love is kind of the foundation of

The word honor that really differentiates it from respect, which is what most people in society, it's the lens that most of us look through. because it's like you have to earn it.

I deserve it because I'm me, you know, and I know me and I do deserve it. But but you, I I'm gonna, I'm gonna reserve until you deserve. You know, I'm gonna hold myself back, which really creates a

Andrew Estes (20:28)

their

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (20:19)

fascinating dynamic and I think that's part of why the world is broken, to be honest. Is because we keep looking around waiting for them to earn it and they don't because they're people.

Andrew Estes (20:28)

people. Yeah, yeah, it's it's fascinating. When I was just

Looking through just some of the the content of the the book and thinking through, you know, even just some of my education in in Bible college and how, you

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (20:43)

Yeah.

Andrew Estes (20:44)

know, some of where in a Western world, you know, kind of primary MO is people with with money, authority and power. And in a in a Middle Eastern kind of mindset, the primary currency is honor and shame

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (20:57)

Yeah.

Andrew Estes (20:58)

and and being able to recognize some of the things the the the stories that Jesus tells of

You know, even even in that culture, you know, the greatest of you will become the least or the servant of

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (21:08)

Yeah, yeah.

Andrew Estes (21:09)

all and the the last will become first and things that are just compliments. Right, right.

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (21:11)

And that was such mind blowing stuff. I mean

Andrew Estes (21:14)

And just, you know, the the positioning at the table, like when you go to dinner, take the lower seat because if you go up high and then the de the the host moves you, like that's shameful for you. But if you go low and he raises you up, that's that's honoring to you. I mean, just this whole operating system underneath how some of that looks like and it it seems so foreign.

to to our Western mindset and and leadership mindset on just a regular basis, whether that is in marital relationships or in staff culture or, you know, our superiors or subordinates and things of that nature. but yeah, it was just really fascinating.

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (21:49)

Yeah, well thank you. I I think it is fascinating because I think it's such it's such a different way of viewing people. and it's a choice we have to make. You know, you think about this, God can't respect us. There's no metric by which we've earned it from him.

He he gives it though. He does value us or he does hold us as being important, which is the definition of both respect and honor. He does that because

he loves. He loved us so much that he helped us in our aloneness. He recognized that was a huge problem and he said, You don't have to be alone. I'll create a helpmate suitable for you. He he responded to

our fallenness in Genesis chapter three. he said, you know, this separation, it's it cannot stand. I've got to figure out a way. And he had a plan. And you go to John three sixteen, for God so loved the world that he sent his one and only son. So his

plan from the beginning was to create a way back to him that was grounded in love, not because we deserved it.

But because he wanted, he desired, he cared for us and loved us enough that he wanted that opportunity. And he wants us to do the same thing.

Andrew Estes (23:03)

do

the same thing. Yeah. Yeah. It's curious and the I mean, even we go to like the Ten Commandments, right?

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (23:10)

Mm-hmm.

Andrew Estes (23:11)

Of just the the honor of your father and mother, that this is modeled first from children.

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (23:16)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Andrew Estes (23:17)

in

the family unit. spe speak to that of what I what the the significance is of that. Yeah.

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (23:23)

Yeah, well, it's significant on

many levels. One is my experience is the the most tangible example or image that we have of our heavenly father often is our earthly father. And many of you who are watching, that's not necessarily a great image, but it's a really powerful image.

And I think one of the most healing s things we can do is to recognize that our father is an earthly father and our heavenly father loves us perfectly. but you know, for those of you who had a

great earthly father who loved you and and was a great model for you, and this is really easy to kind of wrap your brain around.

but

Here here's where I think people go astray is they listen to honor your father and mother and they believe that that means I need to do whatever they tell me.

And you know, we can we can go forward in scripture and we can see don't think of yourself more highly than you ought and and

you know you're to honor those who are in authority and you know you've got all of these other things and and so we can get to a place where we get all locked up and so I'm not important, everybody else is, and so I just have to go do my thing.

But what God is really saying in in Matthew 22, I didn't finish, it was we're to honor God, but we're to honor others too. And we're supposed to honor ourselves.

So honoring others and self is a whole lot harder for us to wrap our brains around because I've met some of those others. And I certainly know myself, and so they don't deserve it, and sometimes I probably don't either, but we're still supposed to do it anyway.

We're still supposed to value them, we're still supposed to hold them as being important. And this gets really challenging when we totally don't understand them and we totally disagree with where they are, what they're doing, their

character, all of those kinds of things. And yet God says you're you're to honor them.

but it's one of those weird things where we're

honoring God.

And we're honoring others and we're honoring ourselves. And so we can't leave any of those pieces out of the equation, or we're really having a respect conversation, not an honor one. And so honoring your father and mother means I I do need to value them and I hold them as being important, but I'm not a yes man who just says yes because you said so.

I also need to have some boundaries, which is sometimes a bad word for people. But I need to have healthy boundaries in my life to protect me and those around me so that I'm also valuing me and holding myself as being important. You know, some people grew up in homes where they were verbally, physically abused, sexually abused even,

and they're expected.

By you know, if you honor your father and mother, let's say that they either knew about what happened or were party to what happened and they're still alive and Christmas time comes around and the families all get together and you're expected to be there and you're supposed to honor your father and mother.

Well, I think just blindly accepting and going and spending the time in especially in situations where comments are made or where the abuse continues or whatever, you're not honoring yourself. You're not valuing yourself by putting yourself in a position where they're gonna do that. You're also not honoring them by showing up.

Because you're putting them in a position where they're going to dishonor you likely.

And so sometimes the most honorable thing you can do for your parents in that situation is to either limit the amount of time you go or have an agreement with your spouse, hey, we're going to go, but if something comes up, here's our sign, we're out of here. Or it may be the very best thing or the most honoring thing we can do is to not

go at all.

And and that it just varies depending on the situation and and each situation is different. But it's it's putting on the glasses to say, Okay,

I if I look at this through the world's lens, it would say

I have to show up. Or if I put on my Christian lens, I have to show up and I have to be there and I have to honor them. And I go with the world's lens, the world says, screw them. They've mistreated you. They've hurt you. They're scum. They're out. Okay. And then there's this other place where you go, you know what? I believe our God is a God of reconciliation. He's a God of mercy. He's a God of grace. He's a God of forgiveness. And he's a God of justice and of love.

And so in this situation, how can I set things up so that I can honor God by honoring my parents and honoring me? If I don't honor me, I'm not honoring God. If I don't honor others, I'm not honoring God. So it really is the power and the importance of the word and. So trying to decide intentionally what can I do in this situation that most honors.

All the above.

Andrew Estes (29:06)

all of the in.

Yeah, it's yeah, it's definitely difficult in, you know, families with, you know, trauma or different things from from the father and having that father wound or even unbelieving families, right? I mean, so Jesus

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (29:18)

Absolutely.

Andrew Estes (29:19)

talks about just the the difference between, you know, the that the gospel's gonna separate you know, family members in different areas. And

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (29:26)

Mm-hmm.

Andrew Estes (29:27)

but one I I've always liked my I think my dad told me a definition of of that commandment as living your life in such a way that it brings honor to your father and

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (29:37)

Yes. That's a yeah, that's a great definition.

Andrew Estes (29:38)

And and that was yeah, that's a great definition.

Yeah. You you've talked a a little bit about just kind of a differentiation between respect and sh and honor and or or love being the foundation of honor. I'd love for you just k give us a a little bit of a a clarification on what what is the differentiation between those and why is that significant.

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (29:59)

Yeah, and I I probably I probably went off because I was thinking ahead before, but one of the fundamental things that I was wrestling with initially was we've got this thing called respect. And respect is what you earn based on position, power, authority, wealth, privilege, behavior, all of those kinds of things. And you know, r we

Our our world's really consumed with it. I mean, there are books that are written about it, there are songs written about it, you know, Rodney Dangerfield, I get no respect, no respect. you know. and and it is a big deal. And respect is a good thing, and I don't want you to get that wrong, but it is something that you have to earn.

And if you haven't earned it, you you don't have to get it. Okay. So it's like I'm off the hook. If you do something stupid, Andrew, then I don't have to respond by valuing you or or holding you as being important because you've demonstrated yourself to not

be that for me. So, you know, we we really have to kind of settle that in. And it's like so

I create a self-fulfilling prophecy. If I'm not respectful in return, I would expect you're not gonna be respectful of me again. And so it just kind of rolls downhill. Rarely I'll do something that is respectful because let's say you're a police officer or you're a parent or you're a coach or a teacher or a whatever.

pastor. Okay, that's probably a bad that's let's

leave them out of it. You know, they they're in a position of authority and because they are, I respect them. Well, 30 years ago, that may have been true. We live in a world where that just isn't the norm anymore. It used to be somebody who was the president of the United States would get

respect because they're the president of the United States.

Well, I will tell you for the last probably sixteen years that's not been the case. And it doesn't matter which party is in power. Respect isn't freely offered by over 50% of the population. But we're called to something more and we're called to something different. And that's why it was such a big deal to me about all right, well what lens does God use? Because if it's not a respect lens,

There's no question that he values us. There's no question that he holds us as being important. So it must have a different foundation. And that's as I went through scripture, it was like really apparent to me that it was love. And it connected back to the couple that I worked with. that was why I had the chills when she said it, because it was like, okay, that makes sense. that's the differentiating factor.

and

When I honor someone, they don't know whether I'm honoring them or respecting them. All they know is I'm showing them that they're valuable and that they're important to me. And because of that, they're going to be more open to whatever it is that I bring.

So it ends up having far reaching implications. you know, you think about when we evangelize,

The street corner evangelist is somebody who is disrespecting people. Now he's going to get some people to respond who are scared and don't want to burn. But those who can value somebody with whom they disagree, can speak the truth, but do it in love,

they're more open to what you have to say to them, and you're more likely to draw people closer to him if you approach them that way.

Andrew Estes (34:03)

you have to say to them and you're more likely to draw people closer to him if you approach them that way. Yeah. Do you in a I was I was just talking with a leader who is struggling with you know just kind of connecting with a superior or or feeling just the tension within a a staff team of different things of just feeling like hey they're maybe they're superior or maybe one of their colleagues is

is maybe doing some things, not full on blatantly sinful, but just one thing after another after another that has caused them to maybe lose respect in in one way or another and, you know, still choosing to to give that position honor or or that

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (34:36)

Mm-hmm.

Andrew Estes (34:36)

per them as a person honor. or even in the story that you were talking about with the the c the married couple, you know, and how

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (34:42)

Mm-hmm.

Andrew Estes (34:43)

how do you

How do you just kind of have that resolve? Is it is it just a a foundational choice to give honor just based on the calling that God has given to us to love one another? Or or how do you navigate just some of

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (34:53)

Yeah. Yeah.

Andrew Estes (34:55)

that tension that exists when somebody has clearly not earned or has clearly proven otherwise?

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (35:01)

Yeah.

Well, and and it's fascinating because when I honor those people, they don't often experience it as honor. You know, I value you enough to hold you accountable for unhealthy, inappropriate behavior. If I don't hold you accountable, I'm not honoring you. I'm definitely not honoring God and I'm not honoring you. If we have negative interactions and

I don't a look at myself and go, okay, what can I do to make this better? And

what kind of what do I need to do with you? Maybe I need to listen to you more. Maybe I need to maybe I need to just give in and try what you're asking me. As long as it's not dishonoring you to do it. It's like, okay, I don't agree with this, but I'm I'm gonna do it because I wanna I you are important to me and I wanna try.

You know, the caveat is you don't want to do something that's gonna take you against what's in scripture.

You know, you don't want to end up sinning so that you can honor someone. That's that's not how that works. but I I think what we do is we hold people accountable to behavior and we do it in a stepped approach. So it's like, you know, what does Matthew eighteen say? If if somebody sins against you, you go directly to them and you bring your

your concerns to them and if they don't listen to you after hearing you out, then you bring some elders with you and and then you confront together. And then if that doesn't work, then you shake your hands and dust off the feet and you kind of go your own way. I it's having that kind of measured approach where you go,

What's appropriate to this? Like if I if I heard that something was going on, let's say,

and I've had this situation many times, somebody is struggling with pornography and it's come to my attention. I may not immediately go to the elders and say, hey, so-and-so is struggling with pornography, and you know, we've gotta we've gotta kick them out. You know, it's it's no, I if if I'm made aware of it, I go to them and I talk with them about it.

and let

them know that I know and that I'm here to help and to do whatever I can to either point to resources or whatever. But the truth is the truth. I do it in love. The truth is you cannot continue this behavior and serve in the role that you have. And so I need to have some healthy boundaries around okay I'm not I'm not going to let just let you get away with it.

And so I'm gonna address this. And then if it's still an issue, then I may

bring in other resources so that I can help you, but they don't always experience that as help. They don't always like or appreciate the help that we get. So so we just look at each and every situation as it comes. And you know, as I've shared this in workshops and seminars, I have people

tell me all different kinds of stories. And well, my my brother stole money from my parents for years and and

you know now the they've both died and so I'm having to split the inheritance with them and I know they've stolen all this money and da da da. It's like, okay, well let's look at how do you honor in that situation.

And

Usually they just want justice in that situation. And so it's really hard to determine. But I believe that honor has to be intentional too. It's not something that is just natural to how we're wired. So it's it's why, you know, I take these off at at night, and when I took those off, all of a sudden you became blurry. You know, I have to pick these up in the morning so that I can see clearly.

I have to pick up the glasses of honor and look at people through his lens, not through mine. Because you're in trouble if I'm looking at you through mine. Because, you know, Andrew, I know you. I know some of your story. I know some of your background. And and you're human. And, you know, you're an idiot and so am I. And so it's

Andrew Estes (39:26)

you know, you're an idiot and so am I. And so and

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (39:30)

why I'm so hard on myself a lot.

Andrew Estes (39:31)

Can can

you lose your license for as a counselor to keep calling people idiots like pastors and interviewers and

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (39:36)

well no. As long as I'm doing

it in love, it's okay. You know. no and i it it depends on on whether it's appropriate. It's it's one of those Yeah, bless you bless your heart. Bless

Andrew Estes (39:40)

Okay. It's kind of like a southern bless his heart type of a thing. You can say whatever you want and then just

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (39:48)

your heart. And if it's a little heart, that's even better. Bless your little heart. You know.

Andrew Estes (39:53)

Right.

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (39:54)

I'm not from the south. I'm I'm from the north, I guess, so I'm a I'm a Hoosier born and bred, but I live down here now, so I could I could drop into

Andrew Estes (40:01)

Yep, yeah. That's good, man.

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (40:03)

it.

Andrew Estes (40:04)

What has as you've been going through just some of the the the scripture, unpacking all of that and and reading and researching and writing this book, what how how has this changed you personally? Like how how you show up in your either as a coach or as a counselor, as a spouse, as a leader in your in your team, what what is what has kind of shifted in you?

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (40:25)

well first is perspective. I and I wish I could show you my counseling room. This is this is where I do my Zoom meetings is here in this inner office. But I have a couple of chairs, a couch, and then a table between the two chairs, and on that table sits a pair of reading glasses.

And a number of years ago I had this little interaction with God, and he he told me that I need to see people as he sees them. And those glasses have sat there ever since as a reminder that I have to pick up my guide glasses whenever somebody walks into my office. I need to see them as he does so that I can run respond to them more like he does or would. And

If I don't, I you know, I'm gonna be mad, I'm gonna be frustrated, I'm gonna be irritated, I'm gonna be confused. It's like, no, I need to accept you where you are,

broken human being that you are. I need to take you as this person, not because I want you to stay here, but because my being here with you allows me to walk with you to a better place.

And and so that perspective has fundamentally changed the way that I practice inside my office.

and then you know it it's affected my language, you know, as I'm as I'm talking, as I'm teaching, everything now kind of comes

through this honor lens. And as I'm listening to sermons, I'm like, okay, how does that connect to looking at people through this way? And so it it's changed how I read scripture. and you know, I I know that

Because it impacted me this way, it's not gonna impact everybody that way. but it has transformed my relationship with my wife, with my kids, with my staff,

that you know, I'm I am much more generous with them in terms of making mistakes and and I I also as a result am able to have better relationships with them.

so that I can help them become better at what they do. At least in most cases I would say that's the case.

Andrew Estes (42:50)

Yeah. Yeah that's good, man. When you when you go about teaching people about

you know, rediscovering honor and and the things of this, you know, as you're as you're walking them through what are what are some tangible exercises or or

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (43:05)

Okay.

Andrew Estes (43:05)

practices that people can start to pick up on to really start to just to maybe it is there's putting a pair of glasses on their desk or whatever that might look like, just to remind them of that paradigm shift, of that just different viewpoint. but what are what are some other things that you coach people to do to to lift this

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (43:21)

Okay,

Andrew Estes (43:22)

up higher?

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (43:22)

sure. so I I start with self-awareness. You know, it's there are things that I experience

that are fundamentally emotional for me. And when I get emotional, my ability to think clearly, and you know, my my

My thinking, my cognition gets really kind of hijacked by strong emotion. And I have to be really careful about that. You know, when when there's a lot of emotion going on, I go, okay, I need to be really intentional now. I need to slow down. I need to listen. Because so often

when somebody is saying something about which we are emotional,

Our inclination is to be thinking about w how can we respond, how can we attack, how can we take down their arguments and how can I win?

And that's not honoring them. And it's making a lot of assumptions. We we bring a lot of assumptions to the table because we assume they're they're trying to attack us. That may not be their intent. It may be, but it it may not be. But when we assume it is, we respond as though it is. And that generally doesn't lead to good outcomes. And so

I I have a saying that I've used for years and that's create an environment where good things

are more likely.

Hear that again. Create an environment where good things are more likely.

And I believe using an honor lens creates an environment where good things are more likely. Not guaranteed, but more likely every time. Okay.

so if I stop when I I recognize I'm getting emotional, okay.

So is that me? Is that the situation? Is that the person I'm with? What's going on? So I try to have a sense of awareness of that. And then I go, okay, what do I what can I do that's honoring to them right now? Well, one thing I could do is I could listen. And I could get curious and not be defensive. You know, if

most of you who know me would say Matt's not defensive.

I will tell you that Matt has an incredibly difficult time with being defensive because I haven't

I'm smart, I'm well educated, I know my stuff, I've been doing this for 37 plus years. You know, I and so you attack me on something, I'm ready to come at you, or I don't want you to think that I'm not smart and intelligent

and all this stuff. and so my natural inclination is to be defensive. And fortunately, I've had people who have called me on it.

And I don't like it when they call me on it, but they're right. And so it was like, All right, I need to be aware of when that is happening, and then I need to start by listening more. I need to shut my mouth and I need to listen and then I need to reflect what I'm hearing.

You know. So, Andrew, what I heard you say was, whatever.

Am I hearing you right? And it does a couple of things. One, it tells the other person, I care enough about you to listen to you. I care even more about you that I want to know if I'm hearing you correctly. So I've already done some great things just in those two steps to honor you.

And before I go on the offensive and say what I want to say, then I get curious. So, you know, I want I I'd love it if you would help me understand this a little more. because you said this, and I know that I see it differently than you, but I want to understand it like you do. Can you can you talk about this part of it a little

more? Or is it, is it do you think it's connected to this?

and so that curiosity again signals I value you enough for you to to ask you and to really care about your answer. Before I go into the okay, well, I appreciate you sharing that with me. I can totally understand why you feel that way. I I'd like to offer my position if you'll allow me. And

so, and most of the time, if you've been respectful.

Honoring to them and listen to them, they'll listen to you. Not always, but most of the time. And so you've created an environment of safety, you've created an environment of care where getting to a resolution or getting to a better place is a whole lot more likely.

Andrew Estes (48:15)

a problem.

Yeah, and it's it's it's super well, I don't want to use the word respectful because that's the wrong word, but you know, just to honor somebody and like that and just the

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (48:21)

Well, it's not yeah, it's not it's not

wrong. It is and and again, respect, if you show somebody respect, it w it shouldn't look much different than honor. It's just the reason you're doing it. You know.

Andrew Estes (48:35)

Yeah. But I

love the just even that that feedback conversation of just we we'll call it in our our coaching circle the language of occurrence. Like it occurs to me or you

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (48:42)

Yes. Yeah.

Andrew Estes (48:44)

know, 'cause it it puts the weight on back on you as you're having a a feedback type of conversation or any type of conversation where you could be wrong, you know, you and and just be humble enough to just say, Hey, I might be off, but this is kind of what I'm hearing, you know, or this is how it came across to me, or as it occurs to me, you know, and just putting that little sliver of

I might be wrong in there rather than accusatory.

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (49:05)

Yeah. So I think both the Book of James

and the Book of Romans talk a little bit about that. About, you know, we really need to be open to the possibility that we don't have it all right. and we can have great conviction and I can share conviction. When

Andrew Estes (49:17)

For sure. And we can have great conviction

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (49:22)

I'm convicted about something, I can share it with passion.

But I I want to make sure that I don't do it in a way that that shames or belittles someone somebody else, because then I lose the opportunity to have a voice in their life. Who who's going to want to talk to me if I'm going to be a jerk?

But I doggone and I'm right. Well, okay, but yeah, but they won't ever listen to anything you have to say again. You can be right once, or you can have the opportunity to be right a number of times, but do it through relationships. And I I I just see from the very first human crisis in scripture, aloneness, and God says it's not good for us to be alone. And so we need relationships. And so we ought to do everything we can to foster those.

Especially with those who are really far from Jesus. You know. and those are the ones that are the hardest to be to be honoring towards because it's like I don't I I don't understand them, I don't agree with them, I really don't like them, and I would just as soon not have anything to do with them.

Well, if we felt that about everybody we disagreed with, we would have a very small circle of people

that we would have any kind of connection to. And if that wouldn't last very long because they're going to do stuff to tick you off too.

Andrew Estes (50:46)

off

too. Yeah. You you touched on it earlier in in the conversation about family and you know, being in s putting yourself in situations where you may not be honorable or you might be dishonoring your even yourself.

And you talk a little bit about that in the book of of showing honor to yourself. And it's it it's

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (51:06)

Mm-hmm.

Andrew Estes (51:06)

even interesting just in in the tide of the Great Commission of love your neighbor like you love yourself and just the expectation

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (51:12)

Mm-hmm.

Andrew Estes (51:13)

there, whether that's said as a a a negative thing or or positive is just kind of something that exists of

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (51:19)

Right.

Andrew Estes (51:19)

being able to to to recognize that. Talk a little bit more about just showing honor to yourself and and even in the sense where when

you know, as a subordinate, you know, trying to follow somebody that may not show you respect and honor, but then also as as maybe even a peer of somebody that's maybe not just showing respect and honor to you, how

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (51:43)

Mm-hmm.

Andrew Estes (51:44)

how do you how do you maintain that that self focused honor and why is that important?

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (51:48)

Yeah. well, I think you can't leave yourself out of the equation. And I as as Christians, a lot of us believe

that we're supposed to. That it's like, okay, I need to put myself over here and only focus on what can I do for them. And so I'm putting myself down so that they can be more you know, don't think of yourself more highly than you ought.

I think the corollary to that is don't think of yourself less highly than you ought. You know, the the reason why I believe God calls us to honor

is because if we honor those God created, we're honoring Him by extension. If we dishonor those God created, then we're

Dishonoring him, you know, and so we honor, we're honoring him. If we dishonor, we're dishonoring him. Well, that's true of us too. So if I don't value me,

I'm dishonoring God because God created me too. God loves me too. I'm valuable in his sight. I'm inherently worthy of honor because I am his and made by him.

and and that's true of every human being on the planet. and so accountability and I I know I've used the word probably too many times now, but

boundaries are as long as they are healthy boundaries, then it's a way that we can show that I value you and me,

you know.

And keep in mind the other person doesn't have to view it the same way as you. They may think you're disrespecting them or dishonoring them because I I'm not gonna let you talk

to me that way. So you've got a boss who talks disrespectfully for you or a peer or a subordinate who talks disrespectfully. you know, I I can see that you're feeling very emotional about this, and so your anger is is really high, but I would really prefer.

that you not use that kind of language in this office. So I have I have a a boundary about certain words.

you know that the F word, for example, fine, not acceptable in my office. There are other F words that probably fit there too, but but it's one of those things that it's like, I I don't want to I don't want you to use that word because you're misusing it. Okay. It may express a lot of emotion, but it's not it's not a helpful word.

And so I just say this is a limit in my office. And if you're gonna continue to use it, just know

I I'm gonna ask you to leave. Okay. we can we can talk again when you decide that to honor that boundary,

you know. but I'm gonna hold it. And and so setting those kinds of things up, or it might be

I'm gonna honor by myself by what I put in my body. So I'm yeah, I drove by McDonald's on the way here and I was really craving some McDonald's French fries. And I could honor myself, arguably, I could honor myself by stopping and getting some.

because I deserve some fries, but that would be respect, right? No. I could honor myself and not get them because putting that in my body isn't good for my body. Okay.

Andrew Estes (55:33)

likes without fresh fries.

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (55:31)

Now this is not shaming anybody who likes McDonald's french fries because I love McDonald's french fries. But

But when I do it intentionally, which that's a huge part of the whole honor conversation, and I hold myself as being important, then I'm going to make different decisions about how I respond to somebody who's disrespectful to me, whether they're a boss, whether they're a subordinate. And I'm going to think about okay, what is the most honoring thing that I can say right now? And it may be we're going to have to pick this up tomorrow.

Because if I respond right now, it's gonna come out of emotion and it's not

gonna, it's not gonna create a good environment. So, so we'll come back to this and talk about it later. We're not gonna sweep it under the rug, we're not gonna ignore it, we're not gonna act as though it's not here. We'll deal with it, we'll just deal with it when my emotions are in check. That's honoring. and then sometimes it's okay, I I can't work with you.

And it leads to a really drastic thing, which is I can't work here.

If you're not going to listen andor change something that is clearly immoral, unethical, inappropriate, unhealthy, this is not someplace I can continue

to work. And it's like that's a really big decision. Yeah, it is. But it's the most honoring thing that you can do for yourself and for them.

Andrew Estes (57:02)

through the

right. Right. So Yeah,

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (57:03)

So yeah.

Andrew Estes (57:05)

it's so I mean there there's so many aspects that that kind of get tied to honor. We've talked about love, we've talked about humility, talked about respect, talked about all these different things that feel like it just kind of flows from that. You mentioned that love is kind of the foundation of all of it.

do you have is is there a graphic or an image or like a metaphor type as is honor just the the foundational root of all these these types of things in your mind now? 'Cause I I'm I'm kind of curious because I went to the Townsend Institute a a couple of years ago and got in

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (57:35)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Andrew Estes (57:37)

exposed to a lot of John Townsend's things and it feels

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (57:39)

Yeah.

Andrew Estes (57:39)

he'll never listen to this episode, so I can say this, but it feels like he tries to have forty different ways to say what you could probably say in just a couple of words.

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (57:48)

Yeah.

Andrew Estes (57:48)

And

and you know, e the the reverse of that might be true where is is it feeling like this this honor thing, is this this massive umbrella that's encompassing of everything? Or is it really just that that root, that foundation, just kind of the the trunk of all all that you view right now?

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (58:04)

Yeah, it that's a great question and it's not a simple answer.

and I love John Townsend's stuff. I I I had the privilege of meeting him

twenty three years ago at a conference and we got to talk quite a bit, went to dinner together and and so I've run into him a few times over the years. And I told him when he came out with his 20 relational needs, it's way too much, dude.

You know, this is this is way too much. it's hard to kind of keep track of it. there's another relational needs theory or

approach that is easier for me and it

only has ten. So it's it's built around the acronym

CARESS. So the relational needs of comfort, attention, affection, appreciation, approval, acceptance, respect, encouragement, support, and security. And you heard one of those was respect. and I've told the guy who came up with it

that I

I think it's more honor than it is respect. I understand where he's coming from. You know, read the book Love and Respect. And I I said the same thing to them. They were here presenting at our church a couple of years ago and I said, I would challenge this use of the word. I agree with what you say. I just think it's honor, not respect.

and they understood it but they weren't changing it. They've made a lot of money with that. So yeah, it's like that's their brand. You can't change that. So

Andrew Estes (59:26)

it. Sure. There's some brand equity up in there. So

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (59:33)

but yeah, it has become a huge part

of the way that I approach things. I think I think honor is a really big deal. I think security is a really big deal.

I think comfort and attention and affection. I think those are all really big deals. And I think what drives most of our behavior in life is an attempt, not a we're not aware of it. I mean, it's not like it's a conscious thought, but it's an attempt to get those relational needs met.

So why do people drink? It's to get some combination of those needs met. Why do people do drugs? Why do they lose their ever leavened minds? Why do they you know, why why do they go gamble? Why do they shop? Why do they

what do they do? Well, it's probably it meets a need for comfort, it meets a need for attention, it meets a

need for honor or respect or support. And and so that's been my

lens for a long time, but the the power of the honor piece has become much more centrally focused for me over the last ten years. My theory is still my theory, but it's an overriding thing.

So I'm really, really intentional about trying to honor people

because when I honor, I think I'm more likely to bring comfort. When I honor, I'm more likely to pay good attention. When I honor, I'm more likely to create a safe place so they feel secure, feel supported, feel encouraged, all of those things.

and so I in my view, it's kind of at a slightly higher level than the other relational needs.

Andrew Estes (1:01:24)

the other munitions. Yeah, yeah. No, that's good, man. well dude, so thankful for for your this contribution, just the the rediscover honor book and just all the all the ministry that you have have poured into over over many, many years and just being able to many, many, many years. So many years

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (1:01:39)

So you're just you're saying right now how old I am.

So here's where it came out. You finally here at the end, you drop the bomb and go, Dude, you're old.

Andrew Estes (1:01:49)

No appreciate

pr well you called me an idiot. That was the first time I've been called an idiot on the you know so

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (1:01:52)

well that's true. But to be fair,

I called myself an idiot too. Yeah. Well yeah, I called Drew an idiot.

Andrew Estes (1:01:56)

That's true. And another pastor, you know, it's just yeah. No, appreciate appreciate

you Matthew, and so grateful for for who you are, for what you do. Any any final words to to pastors or people that may may pick up on this content?

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (1:02:11)

what I would say is I I think

I I know a lot of pastors who read through the Bible every year. I know a lot of pastors, honestly, who don't pick up the Bible all that often.

Andrew Estes (1:02:21)

No Nexus guys for sure.

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (1:02:21)

But I

no I I don't know. I I wouldn't say that. I don't I don't have to look at their theology or or any of that when I'm meeting with them. But I think one of the things I would challenge you to do is to pick up the Bible, turn to any of

the character stories, and look at it through

an honor lens. And I think you'll be surprised by what you find. That choosing

To honor is way, way, way more like Jesus

than the way that we typically read it. And so, even as a hermeneutic, which is a word that I love, I can't spell it, but I love it. I I think it's a really interesting hermeneutic to read it through the lens of okay.

What does this tell me about my call to value others or to value me or to value God? And how can I do that looking at it through that lens? And when you do it intentionally,

it can't help but change how you respond to people. And it's it's drastically changed me. and

I I would say, you know, a big part of what I do. I humor is a huge part of what I do, not always appropriate. but you know, in in my approach to people, I I honor

better by building a relationship and seeing them as valuable even when their behavior it isn't.

to hold them as important e even when they do or say things that are hurtful or or challenging to me and spike my emotions.

I I have a better chance of getting somewhere good if if I meet them with honor.

Not everybody's gonna respond

well, but many more have when I've done that intentionally. And if I don't do it intentionally, it's not gonna happen.

Andrew Estes (1:04:31)

Yeah. Well Matthew, so thankful for for who you are, for what you do, man. Thanks for joining us today. It was a lot of fun. for

Matthew LaGrange, PhD (1:04:37)

It was a lot of fun. Thanks for having

me, Andrew.

Nexus: Church Planting & Le... (1:04:53)

Thank

you for checking out the Nexus Church Planting Podcast. We hope this conversation was helpful and inspires you to lean deeper into your calling. If you want to learn more about Nexus, visit us at nexus.us. There you'll find church planting resources, upcoming trainings, events, and more. We also want to encourage you to subscribe so you never miss an episode. Leave a review or rating to help others find us.

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