Hybrid Church Revisited: A Decade of Insights into Disciple Making Movements with Roy Moran

well welcome everybody to another Nexus webinar i'm your host Andrew Estus and this morning I'm thrilled to welcome Roy

Moran roy helped plant Shaw Creek Community Church in the Kansas City area in 1993 to help make Jesus accessible

and under his leadership Shaw Creek has grown significantly reaching people who traditionally wouldn't step foot inside

of a church he's also the author of Spent Matches which has been a very

formative book uh for our Nexus Network uh the a book that has been uh huge and

um in a lot of disciplem circles and Roy calls um help helps us consider this

idea of hybrid church this model is a dynamic attempt to combine attractional

church strategies uh or prevailing church strategies with the powerful principles of disciplem movements and

this model uniquely emphasizes the gathering of people on Sunday and the network fostering multiplication far

beyond the walls of the building roy also serves as a chairman of the board and global platform leader for new

generations uh an organization empowering ordinary people all over the world to create chain reactions of

disciples making disciples he's a coach trainer husband father grandfather and

our guest today Roy thank you so much for joining us man well it's great to be

here Andrew appreciate it man always good to spend time with you good to see you man yeah so Roy I was just talking

to Royy's joining us via mobile phone from the the great state of Texas in

Dallas at a conference uh where where you at right now Roy yeah I'm in uh One Community Church uh in Plano Texas uh

and I'm attending the U Missional AI

conference so I'm out of my league here um

one of those conferences that didn't exist when spent matches came out exactly it is uh part of the stuff that

that I'm I'm learning or hearing or being exposed to yeah it's crazy

yeah that's awesome man well I I would love for you to just kind of give us a little bit of your story help people

that that are not familiar with you uh become a little bit more so and uh maybe

just leading into you know some of your story at Shaw Creek initially the the heartbeat behind the church plant you

know several years ago but then maybe just lead us into the shift that happened in your heart about 10 years

ago that led you into disciplem movements and to authoring the book spent matches sure sure uh well you know

I I an entrepreneur at heart and so uh having a theological education and being

an entrepreneur it just sort of that uh perfect storm led to uh planting a

church i uh got influenced by Willow Creek uh and desire to build a church

for the unchurched and so all of that mixture um culminated in 95 uh we had

had a you know early 90s uh core team development and then

launched in 95 um and then as we were successful um we were we were sort of a

pure bread you know a lot were were converting from one type of model to

another but we were we were just pure out of the blocks and so uh I'm I'm

making disciples but I had this existential moment in my life um and and

that existential moment was a a space in which um I had

uh really three guys I was watching you know come to faith we were reading the Bible together and and uh every Friday

morning and and I began to ask myself uh what does a great commission mean to

them and as I did that um I I realized that u I was making disciples but I the

way I was doing it I wasn't making disciples who could make disciples

uh my uh generational chart if I'm gen 0ero uh gen one pretty pretty healthy

lots of lots of gen one people uh and stuff but gen 2 was was few and far

between and my disciples were not making disciples and and I had this moment where I asked myself about these three

guys I said what does a great mean to them and it was like they need to make

disciples and so I look back at myself in a sort of an honest honest um you

know very very sober look at at at saying okay can they do what I'm doing

with other people and I realized they couldn't uh I was using my my

theological education I was using my temperament uh my experience uh and they

had none of that and and so it was going to take them years to get what I had to

do what I was doing and so it it caused me to have this existential moment moment to ask myself is there a

different way of doing this in the world that has cornered the

market for learning how to make disciples and make disciples and make disciples and it it doesn't depend on

all these heavy resources and so that's why I ran into the city team folks who

is now new generation and uh just you know by God's grace was was given an entree into that

team um so in 2010 I I spent two entire

team just listening sitting at their feet out what they're doing and and then

started a journey at that point to to figure out what it would be like to to

take this replicative disciplem model and and pair it with this u this local

fellowship that that I had started um that was uh radically focused on or

postured toward the lost and so we began that journey um and you know as

as four or five years later I wrote the book spent matches um about our experience of trying to to

mesh two uh really different strategies you know this collectional strate

um uh on a regular distributive strategy that that encourages people to to move

out and to plant the gospel learn work and play um and uh try to sustain a

network of these biblically flourishing communities uh you know around our our

our area so um you know that that started and obviously at that point

we have now uh it'd be great you know if you into and and take the the the

learnings from the future and pull them back into the present and be able to operate on that but but we we weren't we

we made a lot of mistakes been a lot slower harder process than we really anticipate um uh but you know we're

we're still at it in that sense still looking at this hybrid strategy of realizing that you know in our culture

uh rough estimate you know if we package all the research that's going around there's maybe 30% of the people that are

susceptible to an invitation to come and and engage in a spiritual experience on

a Sunday morning so that leaves about 70% of the population that that won't

come um and uh there's not a lot I mean we don't have the money talent you know

that that able to get them to come and so it's like how do we go for them go after them and that's where the hybrid

uh strategy comes in you know this idea of uh we're going to we're going to play in the space of of attractional church

and we're not not leaving that space we feel like it still has a a a vital uh

opportunity for a a small you know a minority segment of the population but we're also going to play in the space of

of distributive type thing of how do we plant these um local fellowships these

local small and people have struck word for the microchurch house church you

know kind of stuffify the word church we just think like eklesia is eklesia and whether you

find it big small you know whatever it's it's eklesia so uh you know develop all

these new terms like biblically flourishing community and and uh redemptive platforms and all kinds of

language like that to describe you know these uh things that work in a neighborhood or a workplace or are

planted you know in a um uh in a jail

uh you communities and all those kind of things so that's the that's the the the

quick version there yeah no that's awesome man you're you're breaking up just a little bit not sure if there's

any any service that you can do to to improve that but um let me let me move no you're you're good but I I would love

to hear cuz Shaw Creek itself and just even like starting with your gathering and starting how you guys do church is

uh significantly different than than the majority of of kind of prevailing model churches like you guys are super uh

attractional and like in just saying that why don't you unpack for us like what the vision was initially when it

started and just kind of give us a breakdown of what would somebody expect to see at Shaw Creek yeah so like I say

we weren't we weren't converting from a a model to something uh when we heard uh

folks at Willow say something like building a church for the unchurched we we had a blank slate to work with and so

that blank slate made it really possible for us to do anything because no history no tradition or

whatever so we decided you know we believe that uh things like you couldn't meet the needs of the seeker or the

believer in the same service and so we started a traditional seeker or we would

refer to as explorer service now where people would come and uh we would we

would scrub the language down to to speak to them in their language rather

than speak in our language and so um instead of you know things like um uh we

we want to help you have a personal relationship with God we would acknowledge that they already had a personal relationship that that they

feel like uh creator and they have these moments of transcendence and they feel like God's awesome and all those kind of

things and so we would acknowledge that and and our language would be that we want to help you uh have a different

kind of relationship with God we want we want you to have not only creator creature relationship we want you to

have a father child relationship with God and we'd like to help you understand you know what that looks like um so our

Sunday is is designed with uh very little if any musical worship um so we

often have Christians come and leave in the middle of the service because they were were coming hoping to find you know

a new a new worship leader with a new set list that they liked better than you know down the street and and there's

there's none of that uh so they they hear music that they're not used to hearing you know on a Sunday morning and

it's kind of music that's coming off the radio or you know that kind of stuff popular music or you know um famous you

know songs that that you know out of our culture so they they hear a lot of that but we start with a theme on Sunday

morning so right now we're in this theme called beautiful empty uh and it's going to lead up obviously to Easter next week

and so um this this past week the beautiful empty was about uh surrender and it's like we use the story

of Nicodemus um and this idea

of of um the insanity of uh thinking we're in control um and we did a I

forget the song we used you could go you can go on to vimeo.com/shulcreek and you can see all

this stuff um but we used a song uh I can't think of it right now and then we

had a we had a uh dramatic sketch uh about a guy praying the serenity prayer

and uh so we there's another actor in the sketch who played God and so you get

inside this guy's head as he prays this serenity prayer and God questioning him about do you really know what serenity

is and you know that kind of stuff and so this is it's humorous and touching and and stuff as this guy works through

the serenity prayer and has this conversation with God and I I use the story of of Zakius that you know he

climbed up in a tree to see Jesus he had some interest in his heart but but but

his um his interest um was was probably not what we think it is he could have

gone to the front of the line rather than climbed up in the tree he had a a a safe distance from Jesus and just

challenged people to say you know until you get up close personal Jesus uh things don't happen sitting in a Sunday

morning service might might be like climbing a tree you know Jesus is a safe distance and so um and I forget the song

we ended with um but you know just a lot of lot of art a lot of creativity uh the

language is all you know sort of uh put in the language of people who aren't used to coming to church but we really

submit ourselves to them and and who they are and what they're what they're doing uh to to what they think and and

how they they talk so that that we can communicate to them you know the genuine nature that Jesus wants their allegiance

you know he wants to be the center of their life he wants to be the king of their world and um you know you're

desire to be in control is is is really a figment of your imagination so

um but I mean that it just happens on a regular basis you know like this week uh beautiful empty I forget surrender the

sort uh and obviously the the the last week will be about the resurrection um

and stuff so yeah no that's good um well your your book came out what was it 2015

was that the release date so 2015 so it's been 10 years of of

trying um to to integrate desperately or um that this hybrid church model of

attractional and then and also the gathering or so you call the gathering in the network correct of walking

through some of these different things what have what have been some of the things that you've learned um things

that you've done well things that you would do differently things that um is working and not working just over the

last 10 years as Shaw Creek um kind of the gathering piece of that has has

really kind of moved into both of these spaces yeah well I mean the

overriding emotion that I have had to to accept is it's harder than I thought

it would be um it's it's an uphill climb all the way um

and e even uh you know the pervasive model of of

of Christianity in the west um is is it just this deep it's a deep DNA of an

American not just a Christian but an American and so seeing people come to faith uh they so quickly are

uh onboarded into sort of that Christian world thing and they discover there's

Christian radio there's there's all kinds of YouTube podcasts and and that kind of stuff and so the idea of keeping

people in their lost world uh reaching people for Jesus is so much harder than

I I thought it would be um so that that's that's one thing that

that I've I've had to struggle with uh as I've grown older and older and get closer to the end of my life I realize

that I'm not as far as I hoped I would be at this point um and just realizing that maybe maybe

I'm getting the next generation ready uh and making the way for them um in that

regard um I think um I if I had it to do

over again uh I would probably spend a lot more time being simpler and clearer

um in in the process um as as you know you and I met through Oxano so this that

that clarion call to clarity um I think I've discovered that that it

is far more important than I ever thought it would be you know so it's I I I feel like it's it's uh it's been it

it's become exponentially important over time you know yeah yeah no that was and that was

really funny because I had had started reading spent matches at the kind of uh

recommendation of our our director Phil Claycom uh it was Spent Matches and like Lessons from the East and and some other

other books like that um oh goodness like Starfish Movement I think by Dan Grder and like some other things like

that and so like all of my paradigm is like starting to shift but at the same time we were in the middle of like a

year or two into planting a church and went into all of it which is like

prevailing church mindset and and and everything that that looks like and um

long story short ended up starting getting trained in vision frame stuff i did the Goddream certification i did a

went to Nashville to do the church unique certification i remember talking with one of the the trainers there i

think it was Brian Rose from Oxano and I was just like man this is just doing all this reading like spent matches just

wrecked me the other day and like I just you know I feel like this vision frame stuff's just very western and all of

that mindset and he's like "Oh absolutely it is." But but it's still it's still really good he's like "Oh I

know Roy." And then he comes back later and he's like "So Royy's actually down the hall doing a unique certification

for like life coaching you want to meet him?" And I was like "Well yeah I want to meet him." So it was just it was

really good to to hear you kind of even affirm that you know just with within the organizational leadership that there

has to be that vivid amount of clarity with the mission the purpose the vision the the strategy where we're actually

going why we actually do what we do and infusing that into like what fuels or or

what aligns maybe the movement and the dream that you had um but that was that was a really fun experience for me just

to be like "Oh yeah Royy's down the hall if you want to talk to him about all of this." Yeah you know and I wish you know

as much time as I spent uh working on clarity i wish I would have spent you

know five times more um you know in a sense of of having uh stepping stones

it's like I I I've got people you know like the second the the twotory uh

paradigm that that um uh you know that comes out of uh I think is it upper room

lower room yeah yeah upper room or lower room yeah um the the the steps actually

I think of it as a ladder rather than steps and if you think about

a ladder um and that ladder having um

missing rungs in it and how hard it is to get people to climb up on something

high when you know maybe at the at the 5-ft level there's one rung missing and

and they'll step over that you know and exert themselves but at the 10-ft level

there's two rungs missing and so now it's getting a little more dangerous u and so I I realized that that uh I

didn't I haven't spent enough time you know clarifying the steps you know with

people in in the kind of simplicity um that leads to action you know it's like

I can have all kinds of I can spin all kinds of great stuff with great words and those kind of things but if I can't

get my words to actions in their minds uh it makes it very difficult for them

to follow me um I think about a friend of mine the other day I had a conversation with and um he he um he he

acknowledged that he doesn't use his turn indicators when he drives and uh

and I just was equating that to his leadership skills and I said you know it it makes it difficult if I'm in traffic

which life is about traffic you know and I'm trying to follow you and you don't use your turn indicators and you turn

abruptly um it it creates anxiety in me and I think I did that a lot with people um I

I was I was uh thinking and emoting uh on the

fly and uh as a result of that I I was difficult to follow sometimes in that

process can you give us a what's an example of something like that

well I would get frustrated with um with the the words I was using not getting

across to people okay so it's like okay so I start out with just being as close to the text as you can make disciples um

and and people didn't have a context for what make disciples so I'm I I get frustrated after using that at infant

item times and I think okay let me let me think of a different metaphor how about how about spiritual mothers and

fathers all right let's let's let's become spiritual mothers and fathers in the spiritual world now in my mind

there's a direct connection to that i mean it's like it's just a synonym uh

but in their minds it wasn't in their minds it was something radically different oh he's changed his direction

he's he's doing something different now and I wasn't able to connect the the

terms that I was wanting to move to because I'm I I really love words and and so you know I I buy into the words

make world thing you know and that kind of stuff and so I'm I'm using them as synonyms and and then you know when I I

would wear out spiritual mothers and fathers I'd find a new one you know and I and you know uh and so people had a

hard time they didn't see the straight line like I saw the straight line and so I I didn't take the time to help them

understand you know why I was using these things and what I was trying to do i was just more I thought of it as

casting vision and I wasn't doing the hard work of casting vision and realizing that you know it's like sort

of classic you know will manini thing is that you know um vision doesn't you know

flow through paper um it's like uh it it flows through people so you need to spend enough time with people letting

them tell you what they're hearing from you so you can figure out what you're

communicating yeah that's good no that's really good so with the uh

yeah the hybrid church model I mean just the the intentionality the clarity on vision when you when you shifted into

like actually trying to implement some of that stuff what what worked for you right away i know in the in the spent

matches book you kind of lead with those I believe it's seven questions right which is basically kind of following the

three discovery Bible study type of method that has just been um revolutionary worldwide for for so many

just different movements of just like simply reading a text like what are you going to do about it um and then coming

back next week and then being able to hold each other lovingly accountable to what you felt like God called you to do

and and your seven questions kind of lead you through that coming up with like I will statements how how quickly

did you come up with with that or or discover some of that i know you mentioned like getting connected with city to city and was was that some of

the stuff that they were using already and and how well did it work in your context yeah I I just uh adapted that

from the new generations team you know and what was happening you know in East West Africa and South Asia and different

Southeast Asia different places you know I I looked at at at that and and u you

know guys like John King and and of course building off of David Watson and

um th those things are are coming right right from there you know in a sense i just borrowed that um and and we just

sort of tried to simplify it you know put it in words you know it's like um thanks

um challenge uh serve you know just just these seven steps that a group would

have and and in many ways you know for for those that coming out of a more of a a formal setting it's it's the liturgy

of of uh you know movement type stuff in the discovery world it's just like these

seven things that just hit every time um so you know it it that that was it was

easy to teach people that and people got excited about it using it you know and that kind of stuff but where the where

the struggle came and and the real speed bump and friction that we discovered is is that you know that's meant really to

help you take your non-believing friends uh and put them in front of God and let

God lead them into his family uh through using this discovery process so you know it's like the the offer to people was

hey uh would you like to to u read the Bible and discover what God has to say about life with me you know and so um

the the hard part was the fact that people had to ask their non-believing friends uh to be you know engaged with

them and what we discovered is is that on and this is the downside of of

the hybrid world is is that uh what you're one with is usually what you're

one two and so uh they came on a Sunday morning and they heard this cool music

and this you know relevant message and and that kind of stuff and and so that's

what they were one with and so now we're saying "Okay this is great we we we need you to get you out of here you know this

is like an airport terminal you didn't come here to stay came here to go someplace and we we want you to go to

your neighborhoods your workplaces and we want you to plant the gospel there." And if you want to come here on Sunday that's great but it's not necessarily it

doesn't have to be a steady diet you know in your spiritual journey um and and so we discovered that um the the two

sides uh exist in tension with one another and so you you've got to build a

a rationale for why people need to get out in the community and and and focus

on the network side of of things and so we you know we have the stuff like uh

you know the studies we've done and they're they're not formal studies by any means they're more hip pocket stuff

but you know about 3 years into it people run out of people to invite to come with them and and so as a result of

that uh they they need to figure out some other way of of being the obedient

to the the last command that Jesus gave them um and so we got tool this great

tool of Sunday morning people there but when you run out of people to invite um

you need to go do something else and so that's what the the vision we we have this S-curve thing that we communicate

to people to say "Hey at some point you know you're going to get frustrated because this is exciting for you first

time and this is exciting every time you in you bring someone new um and and you

are fully invested but the moment you stop bringing new people or or have people to bring um this is going to get

old and and you're going to find yourself you know wanting more and and

the fact is is that here's more here's you know let's let's teach you how to you know plant things but so when we did

that what we discovered is is now they knew very few lost people

because e even for us we had sucked them into a Christian ghetto

and and so now you know we're telling people reach your neighborhood okay it's like okay where's God calling you to go

and and a lot of Americans will typically say their neighborhood was like "Okay let's let's take a look at

how many of your neighbors you know and how many of your neighbors know each other." And so all of a sudden instead

of gospel planting we realized that we had to get into community building

because there was no community to access there and so they had to become party planners they had to become socialized

you know you know fire pits and and and neighborhood you know holiday parties

and all those kind of to get neighbors to know themselves so they could then invade that community with the gospel

and and invite those who are spiritually interested you know into discovery and stuff like that so it was like that was

a sort of a surprise to us shouldn't have been if we kept our you know eyes

to the horizon and seen what was happening in American culture but the it was just difficult for us to realize

that now we had to add a piece to it um it wasn't just go out and invite people

to discovery group cuz they they didn't have that many genuine relationships that they could use to invite people

into that and so they had to create those relationships and so you know building curiosity in people as a as a

discipline um building this idea of understanding you know the the context

in which God wants you to work in um and learning that context and getting to know the people in there and using the

tool of curiosity to get to know them and all that kind of stuff and it it just got harder you know as we as we

went along because we were naive at the beginning thinking that all this could

happen you know it just it would be natural and there were so many roadblocks in the way that we didn't see

when we started i really appreciate that because that's that's really one of those things I I forget if it's like the

E scale like the Engle scale um but that talks about like you know just how how separated people can get from from their

lost friends once they get like fully acculturated into just the Christian worldview and all of those different

things and like you were saying earlier like there's there's podcasts and there's a whole genre of music and the

movies and all the things that that's just probably not on anybody's radar if they're not following Christ but being

able to to get to that point is you know just slowly removing them from the culture that they came from and so yeah

I can totally resonate with that that tension that you guys are are facing there i'd love to to kind of you know

what what what has has stuff looked like so far i mean and we don't need to get into numbers i know you shy away from

that with at the end of the book and stuff like that with the network but on on the side of things like when you're

when you're talking about leadership development when you're talking about training and and sending out more and

more and more groups how how has that developed for you guys yeah you hear me okay now yes sir thank

you so much good good um there may be a little background noise here i'm out in the lobby but uh yeah uh you know so I I

I estimated the other day I was just sort of doing a little little pencil scratching that that we're probably

started uh somewhere in the neighborhood of of above 500 groups um and uh I I

would say that you know twice I can I can document the fact that we've been to

four generations um in in that regard um we we can

regularly get to second generation um pretty easily uh third generation is

is a real roadblock and and we also struggle to see eklesia form um you know

it's again people look at at at what's happening on Sunday morning and it's

it's like it is it is attractional it is attractive you know and and so we are

our own worst enemy so as we cast vision and give people a hope for what it looks

like to do um a relationship a vibrant relationship with Jesus without having a

Sunday morning attendance u that is that that is a space that's empty in most

Americans minds and and so creating those models

for people to understand that you could vibrantly be connected to a bunch of families in your community or you could

have this this uh thing at work that that that's happening or all you know those kind of things it's it's hard and

that's where we're I I would say we're uh we're stuck in a sense uh we're

pushing hard against that and really trying to build those models for people to see and experience so they'd

understand that um and it's beyond a beyond a group so yeah do you do you

feel um with with all the your kind of experience and leaders that you've and churches you've interacted with in the

states do you feel with the style of Sunday morning service it's easier to

get to the network from like a very attractional type of thing from what you're doing or or like a more

traditional type of church uh that would just be very very worshipful and and kind of more more prevailing model uh is

it is it more difficult to get to disciplem from one to the other or easier from one to the other

um I don't I I would say they both have their their their drawbacks um I I would

say it it may be easier from the the the

more worshipful or you musical worship and that kind of stuff because it's so

radically different you know in a sense is this is this is clearly a space for people who

who understand a language around Jesus and the Bible that's that that's

connected to modern Christianity let's go to a space that's not so it's very different and I'd say it's easier from

that standpoint to to call people to to something radically different um that

that they have a stronger connection to Sunday morning whereas over time you know we we discover that that that

people do realize that you're right i mean Sunday's good but um you know we we

really it's not as good as it used to be and we and we want it to be as good as

it used to be and it's like okay the reason it's not as good as it used to be is is because you were sitting on the

edge of eternity uh you were you were invested in in building the family of God and so

you need to get reinvested in finding a new space to build the family of God that's where the the the secret sauce is

you know for your spiritual journey and and stuff so that's the that's the hard

part for us uh I will say that you know when when people think of hybrid I

always tell them you know don't don't try to recreate Shaw Creek don't try to I mean the secret movement's dead and

gone you know so don't don't try to go back you know to that um we're not we're not trying to sell that by any stretch

of the imagination but but there is a e every every local

uh congregation especially if they own property um has

assets that they can leverage for the community and so like for instance for

us right now in our building um we realized that we had a lot of underutilized space and so we created a

a business uh called the co-op at Schul Creek and so we we actually rent offices

now on our campus we have eight different uh businesses that operate out

of our space they use our conference rooms uh they use our different meeting facilities and that kind of stuff and so

we've created this this kind of space so the community is beginning to to rethink of this campus as as a business

incubator rather than a uh a a a church in the formal sense of the word um so I

I think every every local fellowship has that ability to think about okay what are the assets here you know it's like

um I mean one one that that's highly underutilized and and it's it's it's uh

counterintuitive to most local fellowships but you know people are always looking for a space to get

married in and most most local fellowships make it difficult for people outside

their sort of congregation to to use their facilities it's like what if you were to change your m your mind what if

you were to make it easy you know what if you'd build a team you know a marriage team and and reach into the

community and and actively market your space and and services around that so

and you know require people to do premarital counseling and so they they've got to go through premarital

counseling to you and so in that space they develop a relationship with someone and we you know we use uh discovery um

in in that process we have three passages that we tell people they need to go through you know in this process

plus we use uh you know saving your marriage before it starts is a great resource everyone can be invol and and

get aggressive about that you know and u we have photographers and we have musicians and and we have uh decorators

and all kinds of stuff you know we can provide for people and so you know marketing our space in a way that that

creates relationship with community and so there's you know every every local fellowship that especially if they own

property has has a bunch of assets and if they just looked around you know they they could really engage you know

differently um despite what their style of of meeting is on a Sunday morning

yeah yeah that's really interesting uh we've we've mentioned this a couple times just the ministry of New

Generations uh could you could you just tell us like what is New Generations and then I'd love to kind of unpack a little

bit of your work there and how that's kind of influenced some of Shaw Creek but what is what is New Generations

well you know I could I could put a couple filters here uh New Generations since

I'm at an AI conference I I'll use this term new Generations is a is a DAO DAO a

a distributed autonomous organization um and and by that I mean that uh we

have uh partners in West Africa New Harvest Mission uh we have partners in

East Africa Lifeway Global we have partners in in North Africa and TDMM

uh you know we we have partners uh South Asia now we have all these different partners these indigenous ministries

around the world so um in instead of being a sending organization like most

you know western missionary we we we work on local leadership and we uh

engage local leadership and help them learn a new style of gospeling and so that's what happened early on and if

people have read the book miraculous movements you see the story of what happened early on uh when we we were

operating under the title city team at that point um we built a platform for

Sidanki Johnson and Yusa Jao and Aishi Bane and uh uh uh Isaac and all those

guys we built a platform from them to stand on to learn a new way of gospeling to use obedience-based

uh uh discovery focused discipling to bring people to Christ and so you know

this whole idea of if anybody's read contagious disciplem or David Watson you know talks about you know disciple

people into the family of God so we built that platform and and they came and and uh and and they succeeded and

now it's it's north of 3 million disciples and 140,000 churches and uh

and it's in 60 different countries and stuff like that so um that what we do as

an organization is we platform um the discovery focused obedience-based

disciple making help people understand you know how to implement it personally uh into a team and into a network and

and build these uh three-dimensional radiating hubs of of gospel making in in

different spaces around the world so um in in a nutshell that's kind of who we are what we do and so you know like I

say we're all across subsaran Africa uh all across you know uh especially middle part northern central part of India uh

southeast Asia Eurasia all spaces

yeah so I I mean following you on social media I feel like you're around the world like half the time or half the

year i mean so you get to you to travel to all these spaces observe a lot of ministry that happens and uh just just

walking through all of the DMM learnings and uh just influence the ministry that

that happens in so many different forms and places how how has that changed or

influenced how you guys have done ministry locally at

Shak um well you know some of the very simple

uh kernel type DNA pieces that that uh that there's that phrase disciple people

into the family of God um it it it has a way of of ruminating inside you and oh

my gosh what does that mean i'm I'm not persuading people to believe in Jesus anymore i'm you know as a church leader

I'm not heranging people to quote share their faith and uh and and so what what do I do how do I you know it's like okay

how do I get them to understand what it looks like to be a disciple uh to go into the neighborhood and create these

spaces where their friends and family can come and read the Bible together discover what God has to say about life

and it just it radically reorganizes my my way of thinking but it also lowers

the emotional barrier especially in you know today uh in our contentious world

it it's no one wants to be found trying to tell someone uh they're wrong you

know it's like uh I need to talk to you about Jesus you're wrong about Jesus you need to get right about Jesus you know and we don't see it that way we we think

of it as more in a loving way but if you're you know if you're on the other side of that that's what they hear you

know and and so it it has created a lower barrier a easier way for us to

engage you know the lost in that regard um you know we it's changed our metric

um you know we went through a whole um vision process uh four years ago five

years ago now and um in in that process one of our values we we're looking at this and we

swallowed hard but we accepted this idea that we really the the heartache that we have is that we're not multiplying

we don't have disciples or making disciples we accepted that value as as one of I mean as one of our core values

and so it drives our metrics now you know in a sense is that we can celebrate about baptizing six people last week and

you know all that kind of stuff uh and we do but but at the same time you know our eye is on

multiplication how what are we doing with those people that are going to see them multiply into their workspace

neighborhood families or whatever and it just changes the way you look at things changes the way you spend money um you

know it changes the way you you allocate your staff resources

um toward things uh all of a sudden you know it's like someone comes in and

wipes the whiteboard clean says "Okay you know now start now do this."

um you know it's uh e even from a practical level this is this may or may not fit in this discussion but but uh I

realized that you know I'm uh I'm 70 years old and so I I realized this is the last chapter of my life what do I

want to leave behind at Shaw Creek uh I I've left I created an incredible community that loves to

ideulate you know we love to think and dream and scheme and that kind of stuff and it's just I mean it's it's it's we

love it but but it was not a community of execution ions and I realized you know I I have I've hampered this

organization uh by imprinting my personality on it

and so I began to look at my business friends and say how do I create a

culture of execution and uh I ended up to say hey take a look at this and

they gave me this book uh um called get a grip and it was a a book about

implementing a playbook book a business playbook called EOS you know entrepreneurial operating

system and so three and a half years ago you know we bit the bullet we didn't like it necessarily because it was way

too constricting you know it was really too tight had all these rigid type things in it but but we accepted that

discipline and and right now I think every one of our staff would just say "Hey one of the best decisions we ever

made is is it has helped us you know get tight and and it's it's limited our it's

our waste of time around discussions has gone way down and we've gotten more focused we understand when we get an

issue on the table that you know what's the idea here and how do we identify the true problem you know let's not talk

about the solution let's identify the problem first and it's disciplined us to do those kinds of things so it that

that's helped us and it it and then obviously on the other side it's what created that clarity of multiplier you

know it's like we we do see that as a core value and it it drives our metrics

you know in terms of how we see success um so I'm not sure I answered your question there Andrew But yeah no it's

fascinating that there's still just a lot of the the implementation of just even like some western thought and

western like just organizational leadership like the EOS system and things like that but then also that

you're integrating a lot of just the global learnings and stuff and so uh it still is very much feels like that that

hybrid model that you're trying to uh figure out and just make it better

yeah you know uh what's interesting about that is is now uh a lot of our our

eastern friends are are beginning to gravitate toward that EOS model

oh okay and so we're we're beginning to to help them understand how to implement it and uh look at it and and they're

they're excited about it i mean they feel like it's sort of a missing piece in some of their their cultural you know

training or cultural upbringing and stuff and so they don't see it as a you know western imprint that being forced

down on them and stuff so interesting yeah for those that are like unfamiliar

give us just like a highle view of like what is what does that EOS system kind of look like well it it it creates

rhythms uh around an organization uh to focus accountability and so it starts

with an accountability chart rather than an organizational chart so you you look at all the

major in your organization and you you you have a person that's accountable and

then it it creates a timing chain so there's a weekly meeting that you have

uh that's the timing chain in all of this and uh that that weekly meeting has a standard set agenda it's the same

every week um and and it's it's built to address all the things that you need so

the the issues that you have to solve that come up and uh stuff like that but

uh every every person that's in that meeting has a set of rocks uh so it's

built off of the Steven CVY you know put the big rocks in first type thing and so

you have these these 90day or we we have 120 day we we have three semesters or

trimesters that we operate on so you have this 120day 3 to five major things

that you report on every week that you come back and you say "Hey thumbs up thumbs down how did my rock is it on

track off?" If it's off track uh then you spend a little bit of time with the

team going to a to-do okay in the next seven days what do we need to do to get it on track and so once that's decided

you know you move on and everyone everyone goes through their rocks every week so this is this is a really

fascinating uh concept because it's it's it's what the three group is right

where where you're where you're making commitments to be able to do something so so talk to me about about this just

from your perspective from like you're you're doing you're making commitments and staying accountable in the in the

workplace doing this type of a system but you're doing this in disciplehip as well and you're you're making account

you're making commitments holding one another accountable like every single week like all of these things are happen

tell me just about from from your perspective what makes something like that so effective like whether it's

neuroscience or like behavioral science or just something like that from your from your vantage point why is that so

uh important I think a few reasons the first that

comes to mind is is as a human being I really enjoy progress

uh I I like moving forward and I I don't necessarily like people sticking their

nose in my business i don't like being uh you know held accountable in that sense but I do like progress and once I

get over the fact that others can help me get to progress when I have to report every week you know on a on a rock it's

progress when I have to report every week on what did you do with what you learned last week in this passage um and

and you can see how those things synced up in our culture really quickly you know it's like uh everyone saw the I

will statement out of the discovery process and the EOS thing it's like oh my this is just exactly the same you

know it's like there was real consistency you know in our culture so I I think progress is is is really you

know a a serious uh issue uh I I do think you know uh that also you know uh

we tend to especially in the in the Christian world if you think about you know the sort of the two main um areas

of of leadership is support and challenge uh we tend to really violate

that because we're so heavy on support and so we don't understand challenge um

and and we often see challenges as um a personality disorder sometimes um and we

don't understand the beautiful mix of the two and when they go together so uh it does provide that opportunity to

provide a soft challenge and so you know I I develop my rocks my teammates don't

i mean they have input into what they think my rocks ought to be i develop them same way as I develop my I will

statements you know I'm I'm looking at the passage and I say "Okay I think God wants me to do this week." Uh do this

this week based on this passage and and so all I'm asking my community to to do

is is help me do what I say I will do um and you know not just progress but

there's integrity i mean I I I you and I feel healthier when there's integrity

when our words and our actions match and and so uh I think for our staff members

uh I think for our people in discovery groups uh there's a a sense of wholeness that comes uh when we say something and

we do what we say and I I create an environment that holds me accountable

for that or just it's just going to ask me the question you know what' you do you know what you do with it and um and

and that that atmosphere you know just provides the the the soil that I need to

grow in you So I think that progress and integrity are two critical things that happen you know in this accountable

structure yeah that's awesome and do you do you feel like the the progress thing in particular cuz I know that's probably

part of your personality maybe just that high red or something on like the insights discovery or or high D on like

disc or something like that do you feel like it's part of that too uh but how do you how do you feel like that interacts

with other personalities and in a disciplehip context as well as in the workplace yeah well I I I do think um

you there's no doubt that you know the the pioner mentality see success and accomplish

tasks and that kind of stuff but I think everybody you know whether it's you know the disc or you know whatever it is it's

like everyone loves to to be whole you know in that sense is that again your

words and your and your actions match um so I I think that's really important in

that that progress piece of it um now I I do think that there are different

challenges coming out of different quadrants you know and and that is u um

you know th those who come from you know the the more uh the the green uh I'm

trying to think of the colors there uh but but the a guardian or the the disc of sea that kind of stuff you know is

like there's a fearbased issue there I I don't want to be wrong and you know

um you know coming from that the S quadrant or you know the blue I think is

is is blue is blue or green the the softer one uh blue would be like thought

oriented detail oriented oh that's that's okay that's yeah yeah I think

that the S and be the green it's like you know they they want it to be softer and and and stuff and so there's a uh

there's a need in these environments just if you've led discovery and and you've held people accountable or you

you know you facilitate EOSL10 meeting and stuff there's a there's an art to to

traveling through the road map that you're talking about you know and and to realize that uh you know that that high

type you can just ask them outright why didn't you do it and and they enjoy that

and they'll tell you why but you could never ask that you know of of any of the other three quadrants because you know

one will make excuses one will be hurt you know and one will will be you know terrified you know that that they've

been asked so directly so there's an art you know to to making sure you're

speaking everyone's language in this process you know of holding people accountable but it it what I discover

and and this is one of the the things about people who implement you know they say "Hey we're into DMM." And so what

they do is they implement discovery you know in their their group systems or something like that and they think that

that out of out of groups are going to grow you know growth with lost people or something but but by and large the

Christian community is so devoid of the concept of obedience that when they they

get a taste of it in a soft way like the discovery process I look at a passage I

identify what am I going to do this week u and I tell that out loud to people

just light up to that you know it's like a new way of looking at the scriptures and it's like you think I I I think

Jesus said do what I Hey you know and I I I think that is you can't read the book of

John without you know getting that you know so there's a there's a a flash on

to that that because there's such a a drought you know in in in the Christian

world in regards to obedience what does it look like to to pledge your allegiance to Jesus um so that's the

beauty of that and then I think on a a church staff I mean sometimes so much

time is wasted uh because there's so little uh traction that exists toward

our vision you have we put things on the walls we're great at signage we're great at you know messaging on Sunday morning

and stuff but when it comes to saying "Okay what progress did we make?" You know it's just like in the in the church

unique process you know what are those metrics you know h how do I keep score you know and I mean you know in in in

the religious world we're terrible at that you know we don't want to keep score um because you know if we did

man if people knew what little do we accomplish you know it's like what are they given to you know it's like oh my

gosh wow man well I could I could sit here and unpack that last 10-minute

conversation for for the rest of the day man that was that was that was worth its weight and gold right there i appreciate

you uh just taking some time for us today Roy uh for you uh stepping into

this space and you know your your book spent matches if anybody hasn't read this one yet it's it's a little little

old at this point right you know 10 years old but it's is a it is a gold mine of of just statistics and details

and just the the the the wrestling that Roy has gone through to really implement a a disciplem strategy in the midst of a

prevailing model style church and so which is something that a lot of our guys in our network are trying to

accomplish right now uh but Roy thank you so much for everything ask you to maybe pray a blessing over our church

before we go oh I'd love to i'd love to father we're just uh so grateful that

you can gather uh us in these spaces and u the technology that exists is just

incredible we thank you for that uh but uh I am mindful this morning father when

I look down at that participants and I see that that there are nine people

there that uh the the the kingdom uh hours um that uh we have gone through

right here uh we trust its investment uh that that you will return this uh

time spent uh as an investment and it will reap reap eternal rewards i just

pray that you would encourage the men and women out there who are engaged in attempting to plant the gospel in such a

way that it it replicates itself father it is a hard hard task um and so I ask

that you would love on them in in extra special ways that they might seek their

identity not from their tasks uh but from their relationship with their father that that you are fond of them

whether they succeed or fail uh that you are fond of them you you don't measure their worth in the basis of the the

numbers of people that attend on a Sunday morning or or any other way you measured their worth on a day long ago

in history when you sacrificed the most precious relationship you had so that

they could be your children so thank you Father for them and I just ask that that that they would have a day in which they

revel in in that identity and and they would just take great joy and

understanding that that your fondness of them uh never never stops no

matter they're in uh you are fond of them and just like uh

the the son in Luke 15 um uh when they come down that road you run to them you

run to them and throw your arms around them so I just pray that they might feel that sense of preciousness that they

have in your in your world and uh we're thankful for them Father thank you for what they do and uh for for the dreams

they have we ask that you would give them the the the dreams Father they dream kingdom dreams they dream bringing

heaven to earth they dream what you prayed and taught us to pray so thank you Father for these men and women and

we just look forward to what you're going to do and hearing the stories from them and we ask these things in Jesus name amen

amen roy so grateful for you man thank you so much for your time hey thanks for the chance appreciate it Andrew